109: Water scarcity – a growing problem

The UK isn't exactly famous for its dry, sunny weather – and yet, water scarcity is an increasingly widespread and urgent problem. Why? And what are the implications – environmental, economic, and cultural?

Jen and Matt explore causes and impacts of water scarcity with Laura Major, Research Fellow and anthropologist in the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Strathclyde, and Ellie Willmott, Principal Hydrologist in the Water Resources Unit at the Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA).

Links:

Dr Laura Major – staff profile

Scottish Environment Protection Agency (SEPA)

Taps Aff project – share your experiences of water scarcity

Drouthy Days: is Scotland prepared for drought? – report from the Scottish Parliament Information Centre

Decentralised Water Technologies project

Some past Local Zero episodes on related themes:

Episode 76: Water, water... everywhere? with Hugo Tagholm

Episode 74: How can our gardens protect the environment? with Kate Bradbury

Transcript

Laura: One of the problems with water is there are many ways in which it's not visible to people. Unless you're a hydrologist or you have a borehole, you may not think about groundwater, and yet that's absolutely critical. So what's traditionally been a private issue that people don't necessarily speak openly about, we need to speak about it more. 

Matt: Hello, and welcome to another episode of Local Zero. I'm Matt Hannon and I'm here with Jen Roberts. 

Jen: Hello. Did you enjoy this extended, unusually dry, warm spell of weather we had recently? 

Matt: People have even been remarking upon my tan, Jen. They think I've been away, but actually I've just been out watering the garden, uh, which has taken a considerable amount of time. But as nice as it was – and it was lovely – it was also a bit unsettling, so it doesn't feel normal for it to have been quite so dry and quite so sunny during our spring months. 

Jen: Yeah, I know. And that's because it really is not normal. Like you, I was enjoying it and then as things extended, I was getting more and more a new form of, like, water stress, which is the felt water stress. I know you and I have talked about this before, but yeah, parts of Scotland have had nearly a year of, like, below-average rainfall.

We've had both, you know, Scottish and, and England, um, environmental agencies warning of water scarcity and urging water companies and consumers to manage their water use as efficiently as possible – which is kind of difficult to believe now that we've had four or five days of nonstop rain, but it is true.

Matt: Also, this comes hot on the heels of our episode about climate change adaptation with Emma Yule. Big questions about how we adapt to periods of sustained drought and then also sustained intense rainfall and flooding. Part of my adaptation, Jen, I bought a water butt the other day. This is my midlife crisis in full flow.

Jen: In this episode, we're gonna be learning way more about water scarcity with our guests, Dr Laura Major and Ellie Willmott. Laura is an anthropologist. She’s a Research Fellow based in Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Strathclyde. She’s working with myself. And Ellie is the Principal Hydrologist for Water Resources at SEPA, Scottish Environmental Protection Agency.

Matt: But before we get started, a reminder to follow us on LinkedIn if you'd like to stay up to date with all things Local Zero. That's also the best place to get in touch with us about your thoughts, questions, and suggestions for future episodes. Just search for Local Zero Podcast. 

Jen: And wherever you listen, remember to subscribe so you get every episode as soon as it's dropped.

Matt: Okay. So Jen, this has been an episode a long time in the making. We've talked about doing water, and in fact, we have had a water episode before – it’s much more about water quality, going back maybe 18 months ago, with Hugo Tagholm. That was a fascinating episode. You know, water quality was a real and remains a real key issue.

I think one thing that isn't talked enough about, I I don't wanna sound too Trumpian here, but in the mainstream media, is about water scarcity and the impacts that climate change are going to have. Now, I know this is something that you've thought a lot about, you've researched a lot about. So maybe before we get stuck in with some killer stats about water consumption, scarcity, and the impacts of climate, tell us a little bit about your work here and also your relationship with our guests.

Jen: Yeah, so for the last five years or so, I've been, um, leading research in collaboration with many other fantastic academics and, and practitioners I should add, but really looking at how to make, uh, water provision sustainable. This is with a particular focus on Scotland, but there's a lot of learnings that we can, um, learn from and take two other contexts as well.

In Scotland, the population as we know is, is highly, uh, focused in the Central Belt. And so that means that most of the water provision goes to people living in that area. There is a carbon footprint associated with water provision, um, through lots of different components of how we treat and supply water as well.

And it's like something around the, the, the order of 90% of the emissions relating to water provision go to the 10% of the population. There's a higher carbon footprint in the more disparate, say, rural areas. 

Matt: And that's about storing it and transporting it, is it? That, that's where, that's where the really carbon intense part of that process is, I guess? Also the treatment of it, right? 

Jen: It's the treatment. Yeah, absolutely. So it's the treatment of that water. Um, so the treatment process, and there's, it's only very recently that we have quite detailed lifecycle assessments of water in Scotland and the differences in kind of mainland versus island or more distributed areas.

And really understanding where the footprint comes from and, and it might be say from the transport of the, kind of the waste products that you create when treating wastewater. Um, but yeah, there's also, there are islands in Scotland where the biggest energy use is the pumping of water, so the transport of water over different landscapes. You know, not all the islands are, are flat and you've got to distribute water across these islands. So it's also the distribution footprint. 

Matt: Right. So, you know, as we sit here, or at least as I sit here, it is throwing it down. It is cats and dogs. Um, despite all the dry weather that we've been having, it's really, you know, somebody's turned the tap on up in the gods there.

And I guess, you know, day-to-day living in Scotland. It's a pretty wet place. Water doesn't feel like a major issue in terms of scarcity, supply. Also carbon, you know, something that’s really interesting. So I guess my question to you is why Scotland is the focus, you know, if, if we're lucky enough to go on, on holidays to go to the south of Spain or to one of the sort of, you know, Canary Islands – water scarcity, you know, it's deep in your bones whilst you're there. Uh, Scotland – really interesting subject matter. And, and have you kind of uncovered some really interesting, I don't know, insights and facts during your, your research here?

Jen: Of course! That’s what we’re all about – interesting facts.

Matt: Pretty mundane, pretty boring, yeah.

Jen: Um, yeah, so I actually didn't crack into some of the research. I, I gave that kind of context around the fact that water has a carbon footprint, but I didn't actually then talk about what we then doing around that.

And that's about really understanding how to provide low-carbon, localised water systems. So our listeners will be quite familiar with the idea of kind of local energy systems, but probably haven't really thought about local water systems, and what you might call decentralised or just quite distributed, um, or small-scale water, water provision. 

And that might be a, a, a small scale public supply. Uh, it might also be at a very local or community, private water supply. And I've been really interested in, in two particular aspects. One is, if we take that analogy with the energy – although water is very, very different – if you're gonna be, uh, implementing changes to, to develop and deliver net zero water systems, then you can't take technological shift by itself without considering the wider societal and cultural importance of water. And water is uniquely culturally important. 

The other aspect as well is really evidencing the issue. And you are right: Scotland is thought about as being a very hydro nation, a wet, watery place. I'm sure we'll dig into this with our guests as to the perception and versus the reality, but that's from our context in, sitting here in Glasgow.

If we go into some of these island or rural locations, the people living there are very, very alert to the fact that water is not a given. Water is valued in a different way, and they have quite a unique relationship with water. And if we're trying to, to enhance our relationship with water in the Central Belt where we may not think so much about where we're getting our water from, there's a lot that we could learn from the understanding and the connection that, that these communities have with their water.

Matt: Well, maybe let's just wrap a little bit more context around that before we talk about how record breakingly dry and sunny this spring has been. Much of what you're talking about, I guess, is, um, sort of hyper-local supplies, but also private water supplies. So, big shout out to one of the projects that you are doing with colleagues, uh, through I think the Access programme, which is the Taps Aff programme. That's, sorry, that's my very poor Glasgow, uh, iteration of that. 

Jen: So Taps Aff is a kind of Scots vernacular, um, which literally means “tops off”. The moment it is sunny, even if it's nine degrees, it'll be a Taps Aff day. And it's a very kind of common phrase, colloquially to be like, it's just Taps Aff. It just means it's a really hot, sunny day and everyone's getting pretty much lobster colour from being out in the sun – getting their fair, fair skin out in the sun for a day.

Matt: And the video you did on there, which we'll put in the show notes, one of the kind of killer quotes in there is, you know, we've got plenty of water, generally speaking. It's just in the wrong place at the wrong time. And that really got me thinking – and if you've, any listeners have ever had the opportunity to go to, particularly some of the islands, you get that sense that, you know, where is the water catchment?

Where's the watershed, you know? Uh, and if it's throwing it down, it's soon in the sea again, uh, particularly if you haven't got much in the way of, you know, restored, peatland, uh, you know, or forest or marshland to kind of capture and store that water. See our bazillion episodes before this about the denuded landscape in Scotland and the rest of the UK. But we're not very good at soaking up that water.

So it's not just about stopping some of the flash flooding, I guess; it's also about us being able to slow that water down and to ensure that it retains on the land as long as possible, so that when we can service people, you know, water needs, the water is there. But for these, and some of the notes from a fantastic blog from SPICe, the Scottish Parliamentary Information Centre, “Drouthy Days: is Scotland prepared for drought?”

We'll put this in the, in the show notes, they note that 23,000 registered private water supplies in Scotland, serving 190,000 people. That's not an insignificant number of people who are, are totally reliant on a, a borehole or well, or, or run-of-the-river water supply. So for them you know, water scarcity is a day-to-day thing Jen. 

Jen: This is kind of early insights to the research that we don't have, um, published yet, but really about this kind of care and governance of these private water supplies. And what we are seeing is a, a really deep understanding of the connection of that water supply with the landscape and surrounds, and really kind of quite, um, minute, but specific but important relationships with, say, land use change and that water supply. And some of our listeners will have had experience of staying in places, or perhaps live with private water supply. And actually, I'm just gonna do a plug here for the Taps Aff project, in that we are still collecting these stories of and lived experiences of water scarcity.

So there, there's a one strand of research that is looking at how people interact with and, and, uh, connect with water as a, as a culture – so kinda water culture framework that Laura and myself are, are developing and with, with colleagues and collaborators. But there's also really about understanding this changing in water scarcity.

And we've been doing some really great work with – if I may say so myself – with SEPA around really understanding, wWe’ve put together a 30-year time series of, of water scarcity information and we're in the process of analysing that to really understand the trends, and really kind of get that overlay with when we don't have enough water, or water is in the wrong places – let's say in in maybe like the peak summer, which is also when we have the biggest number of seasonal visitors to many places in Scotland – um, and overlaying that with these water scarcity data. So stay tuned for some, some new research coming out on that in coming months because it's all starting to come together now to paint, paint quite a picture. 

Matt: And, and what a time to do it. So I guess, you know, as we are recording, obviously it's raining now, but it's gonna have to rain for some weeks or months. Hopefully not for too long, Jen, 'cause I'm on holiday for a couple of weeks in the Hebrides, so… 

Jen: Yeah, me too! Me too. Camping. 

Matt: We’ll have to have a couple of nice weeks then. That's fine. Um, but yeah, I mean, it has been exceptionally dry. Just from the Scottish Parliamentary Information Services blog, um, you know, second sunniest April on record, warmest April since records began in 1884, the UK's mean temperature for April was 1.7 degrees above the long-term average – for climate enthusiasts or climate change uh, enthusiasts, not enthusiasts for climate change, I might add. Those numbers will ring true: between 1.5 and two degrees above the long-term average.

So this might feel like a spring, you know, that we're gonna be much more, uh, familiar with. And these, these numbers that it's been dry and warm, and this comes hot on the heels, Jen, you've said this a number of times before, exceptionally dry, autumn and winter. There was a, a distinct lack of snow on the hills this year.

Um, not just 'cause it wasn't particularly cold, but because, interestingly, there wasn't much water. But this has led to groundwater levels that are very, very low. The river levels are very, very low. For fishing enthusiasts, the Dee in Aberdeenshire has only once before in a 97 year record, been so low. So, I mean, Jen, you've sending photos to me, um, of rivers and tributaries around Loch Tay, which were basically run dry couple of weeks ago. 

Jen: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's the thing. The report that came out from SEPA last week, just just before the rain kind of came in and broke that extremely long spell of dry, warm weather had, um, you know, at no locations in Scotland in the, the kinda spatial dataset that they used to analyse water scarcity, no areas were in normal conditions. Every area of Scotland was in, in abnormal, i.e. dry, drier than usual conditions, um, with significant areas in moderate, moderate scarcity.

And they, they knew this coming into this, this year because of the, that, that very dry, that dry winter. But of course there is that real kind of paradox as well, is that – you, you mentioned it at the start – you know, you've got sun tan from watering your garden, how, how much time you’ve spent watering your garden. Is that, we know…

Matt: A drought tan.

Jen: Yeah. A drought tan. And we know from conversations with the, say, Thames water, that there are certain, it's not just temperature, but also sunshine hours. And there are certain sort of stepping points that, that people start changing their behaviours. And that's, you know, if, if it's to do with, um, temperature dryness, uh, sun sunniness, then people will start watering their gardens more. And it's almost like people go a bit nuts after a certain level, when they, everyone starts having water fights and, and filling up their paddling pool.

And, and you can see these step changes in particular conditions. And that's the kind of thing that we are really keen to drill into as, as well. 

Matt: Love the Taps Aff project because it, it really digs into this. Water is at its very heart a kind of cultural thing, and our behaviour matters just as much with water as it does with energy, which we have wanged on about at length on this pod over the years.

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: But water: just the same. 

Jen: Yeah. And I think that the moment we have these, these wet days, it's almost then that that anxiety's gone or that those observations people are making, it's gone. What that can mean as well is that culturally we think that we're out of that dry spell. Whereas the reality is it's been a very long buildup to the situation that we are in, and it's not gonna take five days of, of rain to sort it out.

Matt: And we should note before we, we bring the, the guests in, I think there's a couple, couple of more things we just want to note. One is, it's not just humans, right? It's, it's the flora and fauna. Um, and, you know, listen, I'm, I'm not expert enough to talk about how drought, uh, impacts these, but what I will note, uh, listeners may remember that I, um, over Easter was lucky enough to head off to Arran.

And for those who don't know, this is a island just off the west coast of, of, uh, Scotland, uh, not all that far from Glasgow. But as you come in on onto the ferry, uh, terminal there to the harbour, you look directly down Glen Rosa. So Glen Rosa is, is one of the most, if not the most, beautiful Glen on Arran.

And there's some pretty stiff competition. And they've spent the last, geez, I think it's like 20 odd years trying to you know, reinvigorate, uh, flora and fauna there, having been pretty much cleared out. As we were coming through to the, the ferry terminal, you could see one side of Glen Rosa was pitch black.

It was reminiscent for those uh, Tolkien fans of Mordor, and this was from a major, uh, wildfire, which was in the national news here. Tens of thousands of, of trees and saplings, countless, you know, er, reptiles and small rodents and things: all dead. You know. O, over, over the course of basically a day, a day and a, a day and a bit.

Jen: And these aren't habitats and landscapes that are designed for wildfires. You know, we do, you and I have spoken before on the pod about the time that I spend in Australia for, for work and for family reasons. And there, there, the landscape's quite different. The wildfires are still devastating and there's management practices that have exacerbated some of that, or just deforestation that, that has exacerbated.

But ultimately the, the fire, from fire comes life. Whereas we are not in a situation like that, necessarily, in these riparian forests and landscapes. And I just wanna kind of pull up on the word “wildfire”. In the same ways with the air quality issues that we've had recently, people kept talking about how bad their hay fever's been.

And I'm like, it's not just hay fever, it's pollution fever. You know, it's not just to do with plants. And we're seeing just fires more generally in the peri-urban, urban areas, as well as in these areas of, of what we wanna call wilder landscapes. Um, and, and I think, I mean, I know we’ve, we’ve highlighted this a couple of times – we would like to do a future episode on this, in the, that kind of the realm of climate adaptation because with our changing climate comes enhanced risk, but also thinking about how we, how we manage from a whole system perspective to reduce the, the risks and impacts of these, these fires, whether they're wild or not wild.

Matt: Yeah. And, and we, we know from various studies that, that there is a likelihood of, of, uh, increasing the number of extreme drought events. So I think NatureScot did an interesting study on this. So, you know, these extreme drought events in Scotland likely to increase in the future from an average of one event every 20 years to one event every three years, right?

So that's frightening stuff. Today is about water scarcity, primarily, but about the abundance of water and all the implications that has: health, wellbeing. Water's pretty damn important, Jen so I see why you've been researching it. So how about we bring in your colleagues to tell us a little bit more about what they know, too.

Jen: Let’s bring in the guests.

Laura: My name is Laura Major. I'm a research fellow and anthropologist based in the Department of Civil and Environmental Engineering at the University of Strathclyde. 

Ellie: My name's Ellie Willmott. I work for SEPA, the Scottish Environment Protection Agency, and I'm a Principal Hydrologist working in our Water Resources unit.

Jen: It's so great to have the both of you here today. Um, we’ve been looking forward to this episode for a number of months, but then also with increasing intensity, given that the situation here in the UK at the moment, and the issue of water scarcity that's being experienced at the moment. Our listeners have heard us explore climate adaptation, climate policy, resilience and, and flooding and, um, sewerage issues, but we've never actually really had a deep dive into water scarcity or the issue of not having enough water. For a start, could you just explain what is water scarcity? What do we actually mean by this? 

Ellie: Well, water scarcity is basically when there isn't enough water to, uh, support our economic activities and our environment. And it generally occurs when you've had a period of prolonged dry weather. As you've sort of hinted at, Jen, it's like what we're experiencing just now. We've had below average rainfall for a, a number of months now – that's the consequence. And then you have these dry periods and we can't support the economic activity, such as irrigating fields or producing whisky or anything like that, when you don't have enough water.

And equally, that has a consequence for any ecosystems reliant on the water environment. 

Jen: You talked about water scarcity there being about not enough water to support economic and environmental activities. Is this mostly about then kind of drinking water and the water that we use, or is it also about waste water management? How does water scarcity issues kind of affect those two or they, or are they all wrapped in together? 

Ellie: I mean in terms of, uh, waste water, obviously if you have less water, there'd be issues in regard to dilution and the potential for pollution to occur because you've got less water in the water environment and you're discharging any concentrated, uh, pollutant then you, you're likely to have problems in that regard. So that's definitely a related topic area. You know, that higher concentration that you're gonna get when you've got lower river flows. 

Jen: You just mentioned like this incident that's happening in the UK. So our listeners might be listening to this very live, they might also be listening to this maybe in a year, two years’ time. Could you just give a bit of a summary of what's happening right now and, and what the consequences might be in terms of how people and businesses are using water? 

Ellie: Yeah, so SEPA, our organisations sort of track what's happening with water supplies throughout the year and we, we have a process whereby we track it on a seasonal basis over winter and autumn, and we produce a report in around March time, and at that point in time we were looking at what had happened over autumn and winter, which are key points in time when you'd expect to be lots of rainfall. So your water supplies that get depleted over summer would build back up again. So you'd expect groundwaters to recharge and lochs to refill.

And what we've seen is that period, that six-month period that’s critical for that recharge, we had below average rainfall in in large parts of um, Scotland. And then where we said, “Oh, that's potentially problematic”, and spring was crucial. If we saw more rainfall, we might be all right into the summer. But actually what's happened, we'd have this continued period of, of very low rainfall relative to what we'd normally expect.

And there's parts of Scotland now that are over 11 months below average rainfall. And obviously it depends when people hear this, but we're sort of mid-May 2025 and, uh, you know, there's parts of Fife that have not seen any rainfall of any, any kind of traceable amount for over three weeks, which is exceptionally unusual.

So you can imagine that that will have a consequence, particularly when you start thinking about the fact that we're now, uh, prime growing season. And so, particularly for farmers, irrigators, it's, it's quite critical that, that, that lack of rainfall. And so that then means that they have to directly irrigate, which means they're abstracting water from watercourses or boreholes. And that has a consequence on the overall supply. 

Laura: I think this is one of the first years, and maybe it's because I've, you know, been working in this area, that I've actually heard people notice that there has been lower rainfall than usual for a variety of reasons. My brother, who is a professional gardener out in the Scottish Borders, looks after, um, orchards as part of his job, and he's noticed that apples are starting to grow on the trees, and that's apparently due to the stress. They’re just producing fruit early because they think they're entering a period of extreme and unusual weather. 

Jen: Yeah, I agree with you, Laura. I think that this has been a topic of conversation, not just colloquially, talk about the nice weather we're having, but also an element of concern around observing the environment around.

And, you know, the, the grasses are looking pretty unhealthy at the moment in people's lawns, or things haven't kind of arrived how we expected them to this spring. Everything just seems really out of kilter. And part of that will be related to, to this water availability issue. But what I find utterly fascinating about the fact we are having this conversation at all, is the fact that the UK and Scotland in particular are absolutely not known for being particularly dry places.

In fact, like they're entirely famous for their really, really wet weather. How much of a big deal is water scarcity in the UK? Is this a one-off, you know, 2025 mid-May – is this a one-off event, or is water scarcity something that people experience year on year? Maybe I'll ask that of you, Laura first and then pass to Ellie.

Laura: Yeah, so I mean, I can answer in terms of what water users, um, remember and are experiencing. I think based on the research that we've been doing out in rural and island Scotland, for those on public water supply – so water supply comes from Scottish Water – I'm not sure that many people remember that many critical water scarcity incidents over the last five to 10 years.

And that's partly because of the way public water supplies are managed, and they tend to kind of cut in with emergency supplies or topping up the mains public supply um, in a way that means that people are not necessarily cut off, although they may have been asked to conserve their use. Although most people will remember a time that they were asked to limit their water use.

Um, and I think the story may be slightly different or, or different on the islands where, because public water supply, where it's there, is more decentralised, the local effects of even a public water supply change, um, are gonna be more obvious to people. However, I think if you have a private water supply, um – and there's tens of thousands of private water supply users in rural and island Scotland – you are likely to be much more aware of water scarcity events taking place.

And those events may happen routinely, year on year, to a more, greater or lesser degree, or you may remember more extreme incidents. And Jen, I don’t know if we'll come onto this later, but in relation to water scarcity, those memories will be in relation not just to low water availability because of weather change, but they'll also be due to your water supply being affected by pollution due to land use change, or inaccessibility due to other issues. So, yes, lots more that could be said about that. 

Jen: What actually is a private water supply and how is that different from public water supply? 

Ellie: Public water supply is supplied by Scottish Water. Scotland's a different setup from England in that we have a single water supplier, and they're actually a public body, which is Scottish Water. They, they basically, when you turn your tap on, you don't really think about it: the water comes out the tap, and it's a network supply of reservoirs and lochs. Um, so they're responsible for collecting that water, treating it, so it's of a drinking water standard, and then supplying it to your house.

It's also a slightly different setup in Scotland in that you pay for your water through your Council Tax. It's the same bill, so you don't really notice that you’re paying for it. That's a different subject matter altogether. But yeah, so it's, it's a network supply and as a consequence of it being a network supply, it's different from private water in that there's some flexibility about where that water might come from.

If, for example, one loch is a bit lower, but there's another part of that network where there's a bit more water available, so you can, they can move that water around a bit more – to some degree. Not like across the whole of Scotland, but there is, like I say, a network supply. So there's a bit of a bit more resilience in the system than you would have for a private water supply, which will be a single location, maybe a borehole or directly from a nearby watercourse.

So if you've had very dry weather in the local area specific to where you are, you are consequently are a lot more vulnerable to, to that supply drying out, whereas you should be, have greater resilience from, from the public water supply.

Jen: How much of a, a big deal is water scarcity? How often is this a big deal for Scotland, which is notorious for its rain? 

Ellie: Oh, this is it. I mean, reputationally, Scotland is deemed to be a super wet place, and we are in a – like in a global context, the UK, and Scotland, in particular is a wet place. But as soon as you get a weather that's different for what you'd normally expect, then you can have a problem.

And our ecology and our kind of economic setup is sort of basically developed around this notion that we would always have sufficient water. So whenever you get this sort of anomalous weather, then potentially you have a problem. SEPA as an organisation has been, um, tracking and reporting on water scarcity since 2017, and we've experienced quite a lot of water scarcity events in, in that timeframe.

So 2018 particularly was a, a very dry year in the, the north and the east of the country. Um, and there was economic consequences for farmers, lots of private water supplies drying up. Um, again, we'd had different areas of water scarcity in '21 and then in 22, the whole of the east coast was very, very dry.

And the start of 2023 was exceptionally dry. But then we got quite a wet summer and then very wet winter. So then the, we kind of got the other extremes. So it is quite a common occurrence, and the predictions are with the changing climate, that it's gonna become more frequent. And like you say, our infrastructure and our economic setup is sort of based around this notion that we will have water whenever we need it.

And so, consequently it's potentially a problem because we're, we're not currently set up to deal with these extremes that we're now experiencing in the amount of rainfall we're getting and when we're getting it.

Jen: Yeah, I guess like some of these industries that are kind of inherent to Scotland and the Scot-, Scottish kind of branding – you mentioned whisky before.

They use a water intensive sectors, as you say, because of our availability of water. But they are things that are really important for the economy in Scotland as well. So there I, I mean I can see all manner of sensitivities here and, and particularly around the kind of who, who has access to water in these times of, when water isn't plentiful.

Maybe we could just pick up on the a point that you raised there. You mentioned the kind of northeast coast there, Ellie, like, are there particular areas that get most affected routinely or systematically? And I guess like the, the supplies or the reserves, is it a balance of like not filling up the supplies enough and then using too much, like what's the causes? But I think probably first we'll start with that question around which areas get most affected? Are there particularly vulnerable areas to this? 

Ellie: There are areas that are potentially more vulnerable than others, but we have seen water scarcity in pretty much most parts of the country. You know, it is, it is just that imbalance between what you'd normally expect and then what you get.

Um, so there have been issues in the, I-, you know, in the Western Isles and, and, and other island communities, because quite often they do experience a lot of the prevailing weather, lots of, lots of wet, frontal systems throughout the year. So if that, for whatever reason, that that pattern changes, you will have a problem.

And they are very vulnerable because they tend to have a far more finite supply and there's not a network, you know, especially in terms of public water supply. There's a large rainfall gradient across Scotland, the largest in the UK. So, you know, parts of the west coast get, you know, two and a half meters of rain on average a year, whereas on the east coast could be down to 700 millimetres.

So there's a huge gradient. Um, but it is, it's that, it's that kind of change from the norm that is the problem. And in the northeast, um I was mentioning earlier, specifically in regard to what's happened over the last, uh, autumn and winter, if the rain doesn't come over that normal recharge period in, in the autumn and winter, the northeast and the east coast in general, that's where the, our largest groundwater bodies are.

And if the groundwaters, um, don't recharge over winter, then you can have a, a real problem in terms of, particularly in terms of private water supply. Uh, and, and that makes those areas more vulnerable.

Jen: So when we say northeast, are we saying like Fife, Aberdeenshire? 

Ellie: Aberdeenshire’s particularly vulnerable in terms of private water supply, ’cause there's such a, a, a large number of private water supplies in that area. It’s a very rural area. Fife, huge concentration of, uh, arable land and agriculture in that area, and it's sort of, Fife, it’s, really sticks out on a limb to, to a certain degree and quite often misses weather fronts. And as a consequence, is quite vulnerable that way.

But there's also been, you, you can also have problems, again, it's these, these far east parts of the country. So Fife, Aberdeenshire, East Lothian, and then parts of the Scottish Borders as well are all quite, they, they quite often miss those, those weather fronts. So they're heavily dependent on that, um, winter recharge period.

So if you're not getting that rainfall over autumn and winter, then, then they can be quite vulnerable to what would happen over summer, um, because they're, they're far more reliant on their rivers being fed by groundwater.

Laura: I was gonna ask Ellie what the interplay is between, you know, you were talking about weather fronts and also what's come up is groundwater, which I think, you know, the average water user or you know, when we're thinking about water in Scotland, for instance, we often don't think about groundwater. Um, we think about water as something that comes down on our heads and kind of flows into rivers and so on.

But equally as important in hydrological terms, I believe, as I've come to get to know the topic better, is actually the water that comes up from the underneath that's being recharged, um, as you're describing it. So does it then matter for those different regions in terms of how much the type of groundwater affects water scarcity levels? If that makes sense?

Ellie: So the west of the country, it tends to rely far more on surface water. So lochs and rivers is where the main water place come from, rather than particularly from boreholes. Whereas east you're gonna get, there’s, there’s more large aquifers, so sort of groundwater units, they rely on that, that winter recharge and that, the water sort of percolating down through the ground, and then that can sustain rivers when it's, it's dry over the summer.

So if, they're more vulnerable to dry periods in, in, in autumn and winter, whereas the west coast, it tends to be surface water storage. So it's kind of, you, you tend to get more continuous rainfall on the west coast throughout the year. So they can be vulnerable in both ways, in, in many respects. But yeah, the, the east coast is particularly vulnerable when it, you have a, a dry autumn and a dry winter.

Because that you're not getting that recharge. If you get that recharge during that period, then you are going to get a more sustained flow and they, they can cope with dry periods over summer, but they're very, very vulnerable when you don't get that recharge, 'cause it's less likely that you'll get that sustaining water kind of infiltrating into the, to the rocks below.

Laura: I think that's quite important, because I think often what we don't realise is that all of the seasons matter. You need that winter, that autumn and winter season º if that's not wet, that affects the summer season. And that's a particular way of thinking about water availability, as opposed to just thinking, oh, it hasn't rained for a couple of months. That may be coming on top of an, an event that's actually started many months earlier. 

Ellie: That's why it's really, um, significant of what's going on at the moment. We were having a look at the groundwater levels in Fife just this last week because we're trying to track what's going on. And if you look at the graph for the period, you'd normally accept it to be quite, you know, cyclical, that it would naturally, uh, the, the levels would fall during summer into early autumn, and then you'd expect the graph to tick up the way and it to be a natural climb and a, and a hump in that graph.

And it just, it looks so different this year compared to previous years, because that the uptick in terms of how much water you would expect to, to come into the aquifers over autumn and winter just hasn't happened. So I think it's a different type of vulnerability where you'd expect these sustaining flows where you would ordinarily expect like the, the groundwater levels to drop from sort of this point onwards in the year, that they didn't reach a height over the winter period. So they're starting from such a low point relative to what would normally be the case. So it makes them far more vulnerable. 

Jen: Yeah, and I guess it's thinking about this from that kind of short-termism, and then long-termism perspectives as well. And I guess I'd be really interested to hear how is this going to change?

Like you have touched on this, both of you, uh, at the kind of hands of climate change and, and the other sorts of changes, um, and transitions that we're gonna see in terms of climate change mitigation and adaptation. How do we envisage this changing in the future? And kind of wrapped into that is also kind of how easy is this to, to forecast? Like, how can you know what's going to happen? 

Laura: Ellie, that's definitely one for you. 

Ellie: Sorry. Um, yeah, I, I mean all the, all the, uh, projections suggest that we're gonna get far greater extremes of climate. So both high rainfall, high intensity rainfall events, so wetter winters, but drier, warmer summers. So with these extremes, we have to, have to think that we need to adapt to deal with that.

And that, as I sort of touched upon earlier, our current infrastructure and practices don't really deal with that very well. So, I think in order to kind of cope better, we have to find different ways of, of managing our water supplies and thinking about what we’re using that water for, you know, be it, um, storage reservoirs – that's one of the things where, particularly with agricultural users, they can create their own winter storage reservoirs. So when, when ordinarily you'd hope there'd be rainfall over winter, you get greater storage and, and have a little bit more resilience for when the dry weather comes.

But yeah, the prediction is that we’re far more likely to have these kind of events far more frequently. The only way we can deal with that is to, is to adapt and, and manage our waters differently than the way that we currently do. 

Jen: I think then that probably links really nicely onto Laura. Some of the research that you've been doing, have people experiencing water scarcity or water issues, water availability issues, are you seeing people link that to climate change and wider environmental change?

Laura: What I would say first, is that people with private water supplies are in general much more aware of weather conditions and how that's affecting their supply than, say, somebody on a public supply. Um, and so they're much more in tune with changes to weather patterns. I think that whether that's being linked to a change in the climate depends on the region.

Um, and we know from some of the wider work that we've been doing, Jen, and also in the work that's involved collaboration with SEPA, that how weather patterns are changing may vary quite a lot depending on the specific regions of Scotland. So as part of the project called Taps Aff, um, which looked at, uh, collecting stories from people who were experiencing water scarcity across rural Scotland.

That was a project in collaboration with Elizabeth Lawson at the University of Newcastle, who was a co-investigator on that project. Um, we had, uh, short films and audio-visual postcards submitted, and several of those stories were from people who are based in Aberdeenshire. And I would say that for that community, it seemed to us that people were making that link with, uh, changes in the climate.

And that may be partly because the water scarcity events there have become so extreme over the course of living memory for people. And I think we could probably say the same thing about, um, people who are living in areas of Dumfries and Galloway, where they have quite a lot of private water supplies. Um, I think it's on people's minds. And I think the extent to which people are making that link depends on, specifically on their experience.

Jen: The fact is that different people are experiencing these things differently. And, and making different observations. What impact does it have, I guess a bit on the day to day, as well as our supply chains and industries, but also what about that kind of, oh, I, I hate to use that word, but joined up thinking around the kind of much broader water system, and how we are reaching a sustainable, uh, like water sustainable net zero society, as well?

Laura: So I think, you know, anyone who's experienced a water cut – and probably most of us have at some point experienced a situation where we don't have access to our water for a few hours, even. Um, and you very quickly realise how inconvenient that is, if not massively disruptive. I mean, how much water factors into so many of the things you do: you know, flushing the toilet, having a shower, using the tap in the kitchen, um, household appliances that may need water in order to function.

So the immediate effects of not having access to water, you know, are gonna be obvious to most people, although, um, once you've experienced them you kind of get the full effects. But having talked to people whose supplies may be disrupted frequently, um, or for extended periods of time, or it may be intermittently interrupted.

So, you know, there's a lot of uncertainty around whether that's going to happen – that can cause a lot of stress and anxiety about whether you have the resilience within your household to cope with those interruptions. If you live in a rural and remote area, if you live in an island, uh, remote area, are you going to be able to get hold of the bottled water that you need in order to provide a backup?

I was thinking of this, um, this weekend because we had that cyber attack on the Co-op that meant that the island shops were empty of groceries, and I had thoughts what if you were relying on the Co-op as your backup or, or to top up your supply because you were having issues and it had not necessarily got to the stage where you'd notified local authority yet that you were having a problem, and suddenly that supply is cut off.

Um, what would you do? But then we could think in more extreme terms. So, you know, we heard some quite distressing, very distressing stories about people not having enough water to manage an outbreak of fire, for instance, um, within a community, where a property caught fire and the local fire brigade simply couldn't put that fire out, because it turned out there wasn't enough water storage on site and they were suffering from a water scarcity episode in order to manage that blaze.

And then we could think more broadly in terms of how that has an impact on industry in those areas. So how does it impact tourism? What happens with whisky distillery? We've got a reliance – I'm thinking of the Borders here. You know, it's very famous for fishing. You need a certain amount of water in those rivers in order for there to be a nice, healthy fish stock. Uh, so there's kind of effects have arms and legs in many directions. 

Jen: I'm feeling a bit stressed at the moment, like I, I, I very regularly see the White Cart river, which is very close to where I live. and see what's going on there. And I know I've seen eels there, I've seen otters in that river. Right now the water levels are so unbelievably low.

I was very excited this morning to see a family of Goosanders with chicks. That's the first chicks that I've seen on that river at the moment. So even, I'm not experiencing water scarcity in that I've got water available for me to get from the tap, but I'm already feeling stress from the observations that I'm making in my environment.

So there's, there's these different levels of, of stress and anxiety, as well. So, Ellie, let's, let's hear from you a bit about what sort of impact does water scarcity have on, maybe, maybe you could describe also the role of SEPA in terms of managing the impact of water scarcity?

Ellie: We as an organisation track what's happening in terms of available water throughout the year, and particularly between May and September. We provide a, a weekly update in terms of what we consider the water scarcity level to be. Um, and we use river flows, rainfall, soil moisture data, and groundwater levels to decide what the water scarcity level is across the country. We've got a, a national water scarcity plan, which outlines exactly how we do that.

And we report this information on our website in a sort of report format, and it's mapped across the country. And we've got a searchable map. So you can see where in the, you know, you could put your postcode into the map and say, well, what's the water scarcity level in, in my part of the country? And then there's further information that you can dig into if you're interested, in exactly what's happening with river levels or rainfall relative to what you'd normally expect.

So, it's one thing to understand it and just to track it and, and to understand those data. But we then use those data to tell water users that have abstraction licenses, um, what's going on in their area. And to provide advice around trying to use water more, you know, as as efficiently, effectively as possible.

So as soon as the water scarcity levels start to increase, we have direct communication with, um, the water users to let them know there's a, there's a stress in your area. Um, these are the things you need to be looking at in terms of efficiency. And again, lots of information on our website about that. And like I say, we speak directly to water users.

When the event gets more extreme, so what we would consider to be a significant or a scarcity event, we might take direct regulatory action. And what that means is that we could, um, limit the amount of water people use relative to what they've previously been allowed, or even stop them entirely, dependent on circumstance. But for the most part, we try and work with water users to try and see if there's a way through, um, and how, how they can sort of sustain the supply that they have. That's our main role. 

Jen: When you talked about helping water users to take interventions to reduce stress on the water system that they're relying on, what sort of interventions are these, Ellie? I mean, I guess we're speaking mostly about kind of industry abstracters at the moment?

Ellie: Absolutely. So it's, it's thinking about, you know, with irrigation, you want to not do it in the midday sun. You want to do it in the, you know, overnight if you can, so you're reducing evaporation. Again, in the farming sector, you might want to work collaboratively with other people in, in your river catchment and say, well, you irrigate at this point and I’ll irrigate at that point.

So you're not putting cumulative stress all at the same time on the, on the watercourse. It's just making those conscious decisions. The distillery sector has always traditionally had a sort of shutdown period over summer, but it's sort of taking account of, of when you would do that. I mean, they, they have a limit to what they can do.

So it's, it's a bit about kind of working together and then just taking whatever positive action you can and, you know, even checking your equipment to make sure there are no leaks in it, you know, so – it, it sounds really simple, but they're quite effective ways to reduce the amount of water that you are using.

So you just think, having that level of consciousness helps you be a more effective and efficient with the way that you use water. And that's, that's part of what we're doing really, is sort of raising people's consciousness about the fact that there's actually stress in the water environment, so we need to do our best to conserve it where we can.

Jen: And I guess that goes on, regardless of whether you're in a water scarcity event or not. There might be a very specific support that you, that you kind of intervene with at those particular moments, but really this speaks to much more broadly, a more sustainable approach a more, like a more holistic approach to to environmental management.

Is that something that SEPA also is supporting throughout the year, rather than in response, like, to these events, it's also more broadly, how can we most effectively cumulatively, collaboratively manage water? 

Ellie: Yeah, ab-, absolutely, because we, we know this isn’t, you know, as we've discussed already, it's not a one-off, it's not a kind of rare occurrence. This, this is something that we're gonna have to sort of adapt and live with. So we think, you know, climate resilience is essential in terms of kind of making Scotland kind of, uh, more sustainable into the future. So absolutely, we're looking at wherever we can support people to kind of make more sustainable choices.

You know, like we were sort of talking about, um, reservoirs, um, for water storage, for irrigation and so on. So wherever we can, we're trying to look to see what we can advise in terms of taking a more sustainable approach. We're also undertaking a project to look at areas that are likely to be more vulnerable into the future.

So taking account of climate protection data, uh, relative to our rivers, and seeing we've got a data set that we, we have available to us and we want to produce a, a mapped product that will allow people externally to also see where areas are most, most vulnerable to climate change into the future.

And so decisions can be made about whether you can effectively develop in those areas from any point of view, be it from a kind of housing point of view, or potentially from a energy point of view where you've got a water user like hydrogen production, which is a, it, it can use an awful lot of water.

So you want to be sensible about where those developments occur relative to what we are seeing in climate change projections, so we can make some sensible decisions about where development happens, and, um, where we're using water and water intense industries.

Jen: It sounds so much like there's so much to learn from internationally as well, because these sorts of interventions and, and decision ma- – I'm just thinking even like the price of land now, also being about the availability of water, which is, is something that's we see elsewhere in, in the world very, very much.

But maybe we don't think about that in terms of, of land in the UK and Scotland. Laura, would you say that people are prepared for this and putting in interventions so that they can be more water resilient and climate resilient? Is that something that you are collecting or observing in your research? 

Laura: I think amongst private water supply users, that is very much the case. Um, and I think that's something that I'm quite passionate about saying that we could pay more attention to and that we could involve, where possible, private water supply users in conversations about how we become more sustainable in our water practices. Because people who own and manage and use private water supplies are, I believe, in many cases already carrying out those practices that we would like to see in the wider community.

There's an enormous amount of skill and experience amongst that community. That's not to romanticise, necessarily, having a private water supply, because that comes with many challenges as well. But many people are very, very proud of their supply. They really enjoy having one. And um, they're also very careful with that water.

In terms of public water supply um, users, I know that we often talk about – and I'm the same – talk about turning on the tap and we don't really think about it. And that is true. I think that we often assume that what comes along with that is that people don't care about that water. And I don't think that's true. I think people really care very much about their water supply.

They care about it being available, they care about it, its quality. In Scotland, you know, we've got such deep roots between the water itself and the landscape. Um, and people really care about the origins of that water in place. And water has a culture that's part of social life in communities, that's part of the way people think about the wider places that they live, that is very significant.

And I'm very interested in is how we make that connection between that wider concern and the values that people have around water and its important history in Scotland, and what happens when you turn on the tap and what you do afterwards. And some of that is to do with practice, and some of it is to do with the design of the things in our houses. Um, and some of it is to do with involving communities in decision making around change that's going to have to happen in the future.

Ellie: It's about how much we value what we've got and trying to influence that mentality in terms of the fact that just because it's always been there, it’s, in the past, it will always be there in the future.

And it's not the case. You know, we have to think about how we manage things more wisely. But that has to be a, a societal change in mindset. So I think it's influencing behaviour in a positive way to see how people can kind of, you know, come together and, and, and be more appreciative of the resource, you know? It's a change in mindset to say we have to value water as a resource, even though we live in Scotland, in this wet country.

Laura: Scotland's a is in a way, a good story to be discussing, because it's so unexpected for people, unless they've directly experienced water supply scarcity in Scotland, that it would be a concern. And that really highlights, you know, the need to talk about water in the context of climate, regardless, regardless of where you're living.

Jen: And that's extra complex, I guess, 'cause societally we're very good at also taking things that we value for granted. It's, it's a, it comes to the nub of many, many, like issues, whether that's around families or relationships, you know, just, uh, as well as material natural resources. Um, Laura, what comes to mind around that?

Laura: It’s a difficult answer to give because it's very hard to see the solution being single stream. Great pun.

Jen: Well done.

Laura: Rather a water catchment, there are many parts; they all filter in. Um, but we know that it's not necessarily one thing that's going to provide the solution, that there needs to be change across scales of governance, for instance.

Um, that there needs to be, um, more visibility for water across lots of different agendas that, where water has not necessarily been given the place that it needs to be given in conversation, and we need to understand water as something that's interconnected with lots of different issues across society, and therefore we need to come at it from that wider approach.

One of the ways in which I've started thinking about it recently and which I, I'm really kind of enjoying is thinking about it in terms of what's visible and what's not visible. Um, and one of the problems with water is there are many ways in which it's not visible to people wherever they're working, whatever they're doing on a daily basis.

And it's come up in this conversation, so unless you're a hydrologist or you have a borehole, you may not think about groundwater. And yet that's absolutely critical. And that's because it's not on the surface – we don't see it in our day-to-day lives. Perhaps people need to start talking more openly about what's going on within their water communities and within their households in relation to water.

So what's traditionally been a private issue that people don't necessarily speak openly about, we need to speak about it more. So water becomes part of conversations on that level as well, and then carrying that through, so it's part of conversations that are taking place across lots of interconnected areas.

Jen, we didn't get to yet talk about the interconnection between water and energy, for instance, because we know that a change in energy supply will affect a water supply. You know, large public water supply treatment plants require energy in order to function properly. A private water supply user with a pump, which is very common, will require an energy supply in order to run that pump. And so it's also interconnected with other issues very directly and with wider issues more indirectly, as well.

Jen: I'd be really keen to hear, again, I'm using a word that I don't like, bouncebackability. If we are experiencing a water scarcity or we are likely to be experiencing a water scarcity summer, um, we've been talking here quite a lot about the interaction with, with people, and we did talk a little bit around Laura, your observation with your, your brother and the orchards that he's caring for in his, in his job.

I mean, the impacts must be much broader in nature of the environment. Um, we are seeing that in the landscape, in, in our surroundings at the moment. How well do landscapes and nature recover from events like this? I suppose the intervention will always be to prioritise human access to water and, um, animal access to water.

But is it simply that there'll be a, a dry summer and then next year everything will come back as it was? Or are we seeing a kind of, could we see a, a longer term stress on our ecosystems relating to these changes? 

Ellie: You definitely can. It depends on the extremity of the event. So, you know, if a, if a watercourse dries out to the point at which you've got kind of pooled water and the, uh, lack of connectivity between pools, then you can have, have problems in, in that regard. You can get fish stranded.

A lot of the time it's not the lack of water, it's the increase in, in temperature in the water, because there's a lot less of it  so the temperature will increase a lot more and then that can cause, um, fish kills. So it depends on how extreme the event is, is to the consequence of it. And also, uh, the species in terms of their ability to move and escape the event.

So freshwater pearl mussels aren't great at that, and they're exceptionally vulnerable. So if you get incredibly dry weather and, and they get exposed to the sunshine, you can get kills. The freshwater per mussels is quite significant. They’re a protected species, so it's kind of dependent on species and, and extremity of event as to the consequence of your experience and, and how long-lived that that would be felt for.

So it's not necessarily the case as soon as it rains, everything will be good. There will be a point in time of recovery, and it just depends what the ecology is and, and what's happened to it.

Jen: I am really interested in how water sits within these wider frameworks or wider, um, futures around sustainable transitions and particularly kind of justice. Um, our listenership has heard a lot about energy, justice, environmental justice, but until now I'm pretty sure we've not really talked about water justice. Laura, would you be able to reflect a bit on, on water justice and how that intersects with just transition principles? 

Laura: So I think, uh, one of the things that we've been, uh, discussing, as we've been moving this research forward, is that water doesn't have the profile that it needs. It doesn't have the place it needs within the just transition movement that it's often, or, or the conversations around the just transition – that it seems to be left out of that conversation.

Um, and a lot of that is because the, the conversation in this area started with the issue of energy, but water needs to be, must be part of that conversation as well. There are big conversations around water justice and the need to ensure that people who, who are at the sharp end of the kinds of effects that we are talking about are able to, to get the support that they need.

But also that if we are making changes that we're not further exacerbating that effect on people. And what is also, I really important and speaks back to some of the conversations that we've been having here as well, is that we need to extend that conversation to other species, as well. So we've centred on people, but the effects of water scarcity are also manifest in our wider environment, in amongst all these other species that we're very deeply interconnected with, and that, and that needs to be brought along in this conversation about water justice. 

Jen: This is super fascinating. Um, I feel like we've been able to do quite a bit of a dive into some of these topics. I also feel like there's way more that we could explore and experience today. Thank you both so much for coming on and sharing your knowledge and experience and thoughts on water scarcity with us.

Thanks so much for joining us for this episode of Local Zero. If you enjoyed what you heard, then please do spread the word and help more people to find the podcast. Hit the “share" button and send someone else a link to this episode. 

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Matt: See you next time. 

Jen: Bye.