115: Dispatches From the Grid Frontline: How the UK’s Grid Expansion Is Impacting Communities and What We Can Do About It.

As renewable electricity generation grows and more sectors electrify, the UK needs a bigger and stronger electricity network to transport clean power where it is needed. But what does this unprecedented expansion mean for the communities hosting new grid infrastructure?

In this episode, Matt Hannon and Jen Roberts explore the experiences of people living on the frontline of the UK's electricity grid expansion. How are communities being affected by the construction and disruption associated with new transmission infrastructure? And what challenges and opportunities does this present for the electricity network companies responsible for delivering it?

To discuss these questions, they are joined by Clare Harris, Scotland Lead for the Local Storytelling Exchange, which shines a spotlight on local experiences of the green transition, and David Murray, former Executive Director of Sustainability First, an independent charity and think tank focused on improving environmental, social and economic wellbeing across UK utilities.

Together, they explore how the UK's grid expansion can support both the transition to net zero and positive outcomes for the communities at its heart.

Transcript

David Murray

The big thing that we tried to get and we did. We secured public commitment from all three of the transmission owners in owning a set of principles for effective engagement with communities through community benefit funds. And there were five things that we said derived from those deliberative engagement kind of conversations with people affected. But the five things are transparency, listening and involving communities, empowering people locally, having a meaningful, lasting impact and fairness.

Matt Hannon

Hello and welcome to local Zero, the Strathclyde Institute for Sustainable Communities podcast. I'm Matt Hannon

Jen Roberts

and I'm Jen Roberts, and today we'll be discussing people's experiences from the front line of the UK's electricity grid expansion.

Matt Hannon

As our renewable power generation expands and our appetite for green electricity grows, we need to extend and reinforce our national grid to ensure it is capable of transporting power to where it is needed.

Jen Roberts

This means construction and disruption on a scale that we might not have seen since the grid was first built out. So what does this mean for those communities on the grid front line? And what does this mean for the electricity network companies planning this critical infrastructure?

Matt Hannon

To answer some of these tricky questions, we will be joined by Clare Harris, Scotland's lead for the local storytelling exchange, which finds local stories about green transitions and shines a spotlight on them.

Jen Roberts

We will also be joined by David Murray, former executive director of Sustainability First, an independent charity and think tank that promotes practical ways to improve environmental, social and economic well-being in UK utilities.

Matt Hannon

But before we get into the discussion, as always a reminder to follow local zero and LinkedIn to stay up to date with the podcast and to let us know your feedback and suggestions.

Matt Hannon

Just search for Local Zero podcast

Jen Roberts

and wherever you listen, don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode! We're also now on YouTube so you can find us and followers over there.

Matt Hannon

Hello Jen, how are we now?

Jen Roberts

Warm.

Matt Hannon

Hot even know?

Jen Roberts

Actually the university aircon has kicked in enough. That is not quite sweltering but my goodness. It is warm outside. I mean, everyone's talking about it.

Matt Hannon

Record breaking heat. Glasgow has been cooking, but I think if we were to head further south it has been exceptionally warm for me. I mean, exceptionally warm, full stop. But just a little while ago, as we're recording 2 or 3 days, maybe 35.1°C was recorded at Kew Gardens in London, making it the second consecutive day the May and spring UK temperature record has provisionally been broken.

Matt Hannon

That means the record was broken two days on the bounce, which is absolutely bananas. I'm really quite frightening.

Jen Roberts

Yeah, I know, and it is all over the news. But actually, how many of those news articles have been actually explicitly linking this to really problematic heat and really problematic.

Jen Roberts

Heat.

Jen Roberts

Specifically from or, you know, related to climate change? It's been pretty eye watering, painful. So, yes, just seeing what the coverage has been like and also.

Matt Hannon

Sweat inducing

Jen Roberts

Yeah. Additionally sweat inducing. Yeah. Yeah.

Matt Hannon

Well it is funny your point there. And I think this is just something more generally about how the media report on climate change. And I might add, there was a piece from actually a former guest of ours, Leo Hickman, who is editor of The Carbon Brief, and I saw him on blue Sky. Say something about how the BBC's coverage of climate and climate change has been demoted and demoted and demoted from that front page, which I think is a more explicit way of how climate is or is not being reported by two Trumpian but the mainstream press.

Matt Hannon

But in this particular instance, with this, The Guardian did cover this off, and they were essentially parroting something the Met Office had released. So a lot of this is a press release from the met, right? I haven't seen it in to many other outlets, I might add. I'm sure listeners may be able to point out a few others, but they did carry the line that the breaking the 32.8 degree may record.

Matt Hannon

So I think this is the previous record because it was a study from a year or so back. So the former May record is around three times more likely now in our current climate than it would have been in a natural climate not impacted by greenhouse gas emissions. So in layman's terms, that means that around in a 1 in 100 year event is now around a one in a 33 year event.

Jen Roberts

Yeah. And that's going to keep changing. That's what what's amazing. These numbers are going to keep changing not just the temperature dial, but also those 1 in 100 year event will be 133. It will become 1 in 20 year.

Matt Hannon

But it's it's also about the time period. These are these are life. So I mean I sincerely doubt I'll live to 100. And if I do, blimey, I'll be a real pain in the side of somebody for some time.

Jen Roberts

Get rid of you by then.

Matt Hannon

But but 33 years, I mean, I've already done that, which is good. But these are events that we will see regularly now, you know, it's not like never experienced in my life. It's like I remember this happening, you know, ten, 15 years ago, 20, 30 years ago. You're quite right. But as you ratchet up the temperature dial and the sort of gas mark on the oven, yeah, it's going to become more frequent, which is.

Jen Roberts

Yeah. And I think there is an element here of, you know, we've not had a great spring so far until this point. So it has been like, well, we've been really waiting for that good weather. But I was out cycling over the weekend and I stopped off in a cafe, kind of in the middle of nowhere in a lovely village.

Jen Roberts

And I was, you know, it had really nice, plenty of outdoor seating and absolutely no shade whatsoever. And so it initially lots of people sat outside and they migrated indoors. It was just so hot. And then a couple of other cyclists arrived and, you know, like like me, they'd been out on the bikes for about six hours, said they'd been out in that sun for a long time, and they sat in the sun for another hour.

Jen Roberts

And it's like just cooking themselves.

Matt Hannon

I know you're a keen sportsperson. I know you like your tennis. You're cycling, right? Ditto. Also, I like my football. What is interesting is sport is one of, I'd say, the few outlets that does cover extreme weather. It's not so much climate, but the French Open like it's just been. Yeah. So on this tour de France often you know you see him riders, heat exhaustion, football, the World Cup right.

Matt Hannon

Every every World Cup. They seem to put it in hotter and hotter places. Right. We've had it in the Middle East. We've got it in America, even in Mexico. Right. We're going to see some really crazy temperatures I think. And I think we've said this before on the pod. There's a real opportunity here to educate people a little bit more about why we're experiencing these temperatures through sport.

Matt Hannon

Yeah. And also what the implications of that are.

Jen Roberts

Yeah. I mean, if you follow cycling, have you ever been to the velodrome? The velodrome is kept quiet. It's very toasty. And you have to go dress the Bahamas or something because it's really warm, but it's kept a constant temperature to allow for that kind of elite performance. But yeah, if you start messing with that, temperature gets too much then yeah, you need to delay sessions.

Jen Roberts

You know we do see that in sport. You're right. And that is people really care about sport. So that's a way to engage.

Matt Hannon

And how we adapt to that. You know there's a whole piece here about climate adaptation, which I think, you know, we've got a really cool episode coming up on which you're going to speak to a little bit more in a moment. But I know adapting the sport to climate, but also I want to say it's not just a leap.

Matt Hannon

So people going for a run in the morning or the evening and having to bring it forward or push it back, I'm playing football this evening. It just seemed something buzz on my phone saying, well, instead of sevens tonight, lads will have eights because it's going to be hot. It's really interesting how people pivot around.

Matt Hannon

This.

Jen Roberts

These things kind of adapting our daily lives and our daily routines. And actually it's great that that your, your footy friends are thinking like that.

Matt Hannon

I think they're also just lazy, to be honest. And I include myself in that. It's less running, isn't it?

Jen Roberts

It's really hard.

Matt Hannon

They say the same thing in January, to be honest.

Jen Roberts

Make it tens.

Matt Hannon

11 a side.

Matt Hannon

Why not?

Jen Roberts

But yeah, I mean a long time listeners will might remember an episode we did not too long ago. I think it might have been episode 109, but I'm not going to claim that. I'm not going to claim that. I remember the episode numbers.

Matt Hannon

110. I think it was.

Jen Roberts

Was it 110? Oh well done. And that was one climate adaptation. And it was really to encourage and support our listeners to imagine what an adapted street looks like, a home looks like, and think about adaptation practices. It's not just about items. It's not just about, you know, air conditioning. It's about what you do before you need that.

Jen Roberts

So, you know, closing your windows and closing your curtains. That's what I did before I left for work this morning. And keeping the heat out, you need keeping the sunlight and and so these kind of and whether that's about turning your fives or sevens into into eights for football, whether it's about actually planting things, planting trees to have dappled shade cover around your tennis courts, whatever it is, you know, if it's about not sitting outside in the baking heat when you've been on the bike for six hours already that day, there are some of these things.

Jen Roberts

It's not just about items and objects and so on. It's also just about how we approach this change

Matt Hannon

and people adapting. You know, the members reading something a little while back, there's various estimates. It's quite difficult to know how many people have aircon in their homes because, you know, people can just have standalone little systems. You don't need to necessarily register these things to any powers that don't have to tell Big Brother that you've got an air conditioning unit, you know, in your chauffeurs or whatever.

Matt Hannon

Estimates about 4 million households in the UK. Be interesting to see what that was ten, 20 years ago. Yeah, but I just wondered whether you wanted to say a couple of words about our next episode before we get into this one, just as a little teaser to our guests to make sure they dial in next.

Jen Roberts

Yeah, yeah, yeah. So in a couple of weeks time when our next episodes will be hearing from Professor Chris White, who is an expert on climate hazards, and particularly we're going to be learning from him and hearing a bit more about hazard stacking. So that's what happens when multiple hazards are occurring at the same time. And whether we're talking about a kind of invest power law of of impact, or whether we're talking about just simple additions or sums and and actually, most importantly for our listeners and, and probably to ourselves as well, it's about turning these conceptual like, not not ideas but these conceptual information into okay, what does that mean in day to day

Jen Roberts

lives? Because there will be communities all across Scotland who will be or have experienced or are set to be experiencing more of climate hazard stacking.

Matt Hannon

And it's interesting point. It's like converting some of this quite science fiction into something where people can envisage what the situation might be in ten years time and to to start planning accordingly. I mean, you know, in terms of home renovations and often I'm putting insulation in not just to keep the cold out in winter, but to keep the heat out in summer.

Matt Hannon

But yeah, Chris bringing him along to talk about hazard stacking.

Matt Hannon

You know, this is frightening stuff. But we will no doubt but a constructive, positive, optimistic spin on this.

Jen Roberts

Pragmatic, action based 100%.

Matt Hannon

That's it. Even if it's just a preppers guide to getting the heck out of there and what to do, you know, if at all.

Jen Roberts

Or that actually sometimes that's okay. Like, actually, we might have been experiencing multiple hazard sacking for for decades or much longer is, you know, humans we've adapted. So I want to know kind of what what what extent is this part of our normal day to day life in the UK or elsewhere? We've got other things on its way.

Jen Roberts

So kind of what does this mean in terms of knowing what's coming and planning accordingly? But actually, how much of that is stuff that we used to day to day?

Matt Hannon

Fantastic. So obviously climate adaptation, big part of battle against climate change, big part of what we do in terms of covering off topics here on local zero. But today is much more about mitigation. And we're talking about the grid. We're talking about the national grid as we know it in the UK. But the electricity grid transmission distribution, this is all about getting power from where it's generated to where it's needed.

Matt Hannon

And that's in terms of consumption and demand. Now, Jen, I came across a little tidbit when I was putting the proposal together about community impacts from the grid and benefits associated with it. Did you know, I think you do know, because you may have even told me this did.

Jen Roberts

So the source?

Matt Hannon

No. But did you know? See if you remember the information gave me. So did you know that between 2023 and 2037 year period, the National Grid expect that we will need to build five times more transmission lines? And we did in the last 30 years. Bit complicated, bit difficult to understand. But what it's saying is we need to really, really, really hit the accelerator pedal hard in terms of building out these lines.

Matt Hannon

Some of this will be new lines in terms of lines where there are not existing lines. Some of these will be lines where we're looking to reinforce existing lines. Yeah. And this is going to be really, really disruptive to many, many people who are maybe not necessarily next to these things already or have a line outside which they're quite used to, which is going to get significantly bigger.

Jen Roberts

Yeah. And that's you know, we're just talking about the lines themselves. I mean, I'm also wondering how many times you can say lines in, in a two minute clip of local zero, but that's pylons. Yeah. It's not it's not just to mention those though, because at the end of those is power generation infrastructure. So we're not just talking about these lines.

Jen Roberts

I mean we are today, but we're also it's not that the construction is limited there or the change or disruption. It's kind of these things come hand in hand with other developments and that's what's really key. The other thing though, Matt, is really hard to really make sense of that stat without knowing how much we've built in the last 30 years.

Jen Roberts

So are we starting from zero? Probably not. We've got a good network that says most of our needs. There is something there though, around kind of. Is that even possible in that you just had a seven year period? And isn't it that the the planning, I knew that the planning timelines for major infrastructure and typically longer than that.

Matt Hannon

Well, it's all part of this big push towards clean power 2030. And as you say, it's all got to be sequenced correctly. So you're looking to get your generation in. Then you need to ensure that you've got your transmission lines. That's not just transmission. You've got your, you know, substations. You've got to then you know, step it up, step it down.

Matt Hannon

You've got to go from transmission to distribution lines along there somewhere. You've probably got some storage. You know, you might have some pumped hydro battery electric storage. I mean this is another big, big development that people have to get the heads around. And crucially, to get this stuff built, you need to go through a statutory process in terms of planning, and then there will be a whole opportunity for the general public, local communities who are affected by this, to contest what has been proposed.

Matt Hannon

And this can lead to massive delays. So you're quite right. If there is big pushback, there are processes there that may slow things down and essentially make it more expensive to companies to build out. So it could be if we don't do this right, if we don't engage with communities and make sure that they feel comfortable with the infrastructure that's going in and where it's going in.

Matt Hannon

We may it may put our net zero targets, climate targets at risk.

Jen Roberts

But it's a classic mode of trade offs as well though, right. Because it's like, well, you've got maybe quite localized disruption for what is a nationally required infrastructure. This kind of this scale of, well, who pays and who gains. This is this is age old. You know, we've we've talked about this before and it's, but it's it's really very pressing right now with this sort of development that we're seeing and also communities feeling that they've already had a lot of change and, and you know, well, how much more do they need to take.

Jen Roberts

And it is engaging in these processes is exhausting. So what are we doing to make that easier and to improve that process for all parties? I'm really interested to hear about that from our guest today.

Matt Hannon

Absolutely. Well, I think now is a good time. To bring them in.

Jen Roberts

Yeah, let's bring them in.

Clare Harris

Hi, I'm Clare, and I'm the Scotland lead for a nonprofit media organization called Local Storytelling Exchange.

David Murray

Hi, I'm David, I'm a former executive director at Sustainability First and a fellow of the Institute for Sustainability and Environmental Professionals.

Jen Roberts

It's great to have you both here. Matt and I have got some questions for you, but I just thought you two know each other, and I wondered if you wanted to tell us a little bit about how how you know each other and how you've worked together. So, Clare, did you want to tackle that first? Yeah. I guess.

Clare Harris

Over the past year, we've been working together from each side of a screen jointly on a project. My role at Local Storytelling Exchange is about listening and healing stories, and our outcome of the project was what we're calling a deep dive called Dispatches from the Grid Front Line. And Dave David can talk through what his element of the project was.

Clare Harris

But essentially there were two outcomes. So as a sort of public and sector facing outcome, which was a, as I say, a deep dive into what we're hearing and seeing and feeling around the doctorate. And then there was an industry focused output, which perhaps, Dave, you could talk to us about.

David Murray

Yeah. So one of our trustees at sustainability, First, Lucie Holdaway, is at Local Storytelling Exchange. She brought us as organizations together at the start of this project. And as Clare's just said, there's a public facing side to this. And then there was an industry focus side. And the role that sustainability first plays is to be that critical friend to to industry, to the regulators.

David Murray

So often in this in this case, and to central government and to try to bring to life the voices of communities and, and in particular consumers that might not get otherwise heard during policy development and the politics of policy development.

Matt Hannon

So the project that you're referring to is about dispatches from the grid front line. What a fantastic name. Whoever came up with that?

Jen Roberts

Yeah. It's fantastic.

Matt Hannon

And so maybe before we get into what you're hearing from the front lines and what we do about it, I just wondered if one of you could maybe speak to the scale and the breadth of the UK's grid expansion. It's something that is regularly on the front pages. It's something that's all over the social media, Facebook groups. It's something that certain political parties, rightly and or wrongly, will pick up and put front and center in manifesto.

Matt Hannon

So I wonder, David, would you like to maybe speak to that first and then we'll go to Clare?

David Murray

Yeah. So this is absolutely huge. You know we're talking about tens of billions of pounds. This is the biggest change to our energy system in in generations. And and so I suppose we shouldn't be surprised to see that there is controversy that lurks in amongst communities who are at the front line of, of the impact of these, these changes.

David Murray

And this is all about this kind of, this desire to move at such a pace and scale to tackle climate change, which absolutely is the thing that we should be trying to do. But how we do it is what's really, I think the point of contention and how we're doing it with or two people is really where the biggest rub is with this project.

Matt Hannon

And Clare, anything you'd like to add?

Clare Harris

Yeah, I had literally written down it's big.

Jen Roberts

How big?

Clare Harris

I think there was a there was a quote from Professor Paul de Lille from Robert Gordon, Union Aberdeen, who said, we're seeing the biggest plumbing, rewiring and repurposing of our energy system for generations, as David said. So it was massive. But it's also necessary. And I think it's about, you know, any kind of infrastructure needs to be updated and maintained.

Clare Harris

And this is a moment at which we're doing it for lots of reasons and will come on to that. But, you know, there's there's more than one reason why we're doing this and why we're doing it now. And what we're seeing in the headlines and in the papers and so forth is, I guess, an element of that. It's a backlash from people who are saying, I want to know what's happening here.

Clare Harris

I don't understand it. It doesn't look nice. Why is it in my back garden, my back field? Why is it in my village? Why is no one listening to us fundamentally, but we can dig into that a bit more later. So yeah, it's big, is noticeable and it's going to get bigger.

Jen Roberts

Well, I'm really interested to then pick up, you know, exactly what you're just touching on, Clare. Why now? Like, why are we expanding or kind of bolstering our grid at this time? And presumably we have been maintaining and doing some things. It's not like. I mean, very good at this. Sometimes it's building something and then not maintaining it, but I mean, presumably we've been doing that, but what is it that's happening at this point or this?

Jen Roberts

Has there been a tipping point in recent years, and when when was that and what is it?

Clare Harris

And I'll defer back to you after David, because you're the tech expert. But I guess in terms of the headlines, yes, I has been an element of underinvestment, but also the lack of kind of commitment to grasp the nettle, I suppose, in terms of what's needed to be done with the grid. So that's one thing. Also, we're going to be using by 2050 twice as much electricity as we are today.

Clare Harris

Many sources see, and that's partly because we use a lot of stuff. We used to have our phones that we need to charge. A lot of us now have electric cars. More will do. We're electrifying our heating. You know, we have all sorts of ways that we live our daily lives that we need electricity for. And also the way we get our electricity is different now and will be increasingly different.

Clare Harris

You know, you'll know the kind of big old cooling towers from coal power stations that you see around Nottinghamshire, in the Midlands and so forth. They're kind of a relic of the past now. She's good. We've moved on from coal fired power, which is not clear for the planet, but it's different now. So the power is no longer kind of close to the big urban centers.

Clare Harris

It tends at the moment to be generated offshore, offshore wind or where there's lots of wind fundamentally in the Highlands of Scotland. So we need to get that power to where people need it.

Matt Hannon

Yeah, I always think a great example of that. And hopefully this registers to the international listener as well. It's Battersea Power Station. You know, if you're in London along the Thames and you're like, oh blimey, what's that catches what you're saying. Instead of having wind turbine and Caithness or Sutherland on the far northern reaches of Scotland. David.

David Murray

Yeah. So I suppose there's three big things that are happening and all converging together at the same time. The first is that we are accelerating as a nation, that clean generation that need for us to generate energy from clean sources. So wind being the most obvious on a windy island off the edge of Europe and particularly offshore wind.

David Murray

But that's not where we live. And so we need to bring it from wherever we've generated to where we need it. And the second is that electrification. So if we are going to decarbonize our energy system and, and move off coal and away from gas, all the current flavor of gas that's being used and which over 80% of us are using gas for heating, the demand that's expected for us to shift how we're using energy is going to rise significantly to for heat, for transport, as well as the other things that we're already using it for.

David Murray

And then the third is that we need to ensure that we've still got the same reliability for this national grid, which doesn't see the lights go out and keep the cost manageable. And and yet we've got a system where the demand is growing and yet the system is bursting at the seams, is unable to take the congestion of the amount of energy that we need now and into the future to deliver that decarbonized, highly electrified system.

David Murray

And so that's why it's this kind of perfect storm. We have to have huge, tens of millions of pounds of extra investment to make this grid to increase the capacity for us to be able to then generate at a scale that we've never done before, because our demands for that energy are becoming even greedier. Like we need more of that clean energy.

Matt Hannon

Maybe then shining the spotlight on communities and at the local level. I think that's always a useful thing to do to listeners, because I think everybody can imagine being in their home, getting a letter through the door, Scottish bringing Networks or SGN or any other electricity network provider planning permission. We are looking to put a transmission line in a mile down the road.

Matt Hannon

And with that in mind, what level, what type of disruption is this cause in communities across the UK? And I should I should say, I think that's framed very negatively. It could be some real benefits associated with this. And there could be your project may have uncovered a lot of positivity around this, but how is it being felt at the local level?

Jen Roberts

Clare, would you like to to begin with that?

Clare Harris

Yeah, I guess just to sort of mention a bit about the project and the introduction, but sort of three ways in which we work throughout the year of this, this deep dive project was we we kind of sent out traditional journalists to areas along the east coast of, of the UK where the great, great upgrade was happening. And we did the kind of traditional journalism trying to speak to people about the internets.

Clare Harris

We did focus group work with more in Common, which were your standard focus groups, very carefully selected groups of people along the line of the East Coast upgrade. But we also the work we did specifically with the David first was much more in depth, much more kind of a deliberative process over the course of, I believe, it was six kind of panel sessions.

Clare Harris

So we it was just to emphasize, we kind of delved into this really, really kind of extended in deep way. On to answer your question, I guess for me, three main things and disruptions, not not just physical and Eurasia is a negative feeling, which we found. And we'll come back to about, you know, there are different ways of looking at this and there are different opinions out there, but really in kind of meeting people both out in their communities and through the citizens panel, there's so there's a physical disruption and construction works, lorries coming down that or country roads, you know, the physicality of building this transmission infrastructure or the expected physical impact.

Clare Harris

There's what a lot of people call the cumulative impact. So the sense that there are multiple planning proposals, possibly multiple letters through the door from different people, from different organizations on top of one another and no sense of join up. And then there's actually the mental health impact. It's a type of disruption where a lot of people we met were really struggling because it's stressful, because they don't know what's happening, they don't know where it's coming from, they don't know how many there are.

Clare Harris

They don't know what it's going to mean. They don't know why it's happening or they feel it's not the right thing to happen. So there's some very real physical and I guess psychological elements of disruption there.

David Murray

To add to that, that it's possible to say, you know, you can ask anybody anything and say, well, what would you feel if if this were to happen on your doorstep? Firstly, there's there's instant bias, isn't it. If we're being asked a question then like, oh, what's the right thing to say? So that might skew you towards saying, well, absolutely, we've got to tackle climate change and absolutely we should be using more renewable energy.

David Murray

And I hear and believe that over the long term, that's going to make our bills cheaper, to say we're protecting the planet and it's good for my pocket. Brilliant. I'd be happy and I'd be willing to accept that disruption that Clare's just described until maybe it does actually land at the feet of of your own doormat. And. And then what?

David Murray

Well, there is that sense of potentially of mental health harm in multiple ways because of an uncertainty, because of a disempowerment, because what is this doing? What is this going to do to me? Short term, yes. There's that disruption of construction. Longer term, there may be if you own your own home, then you're losing value in your property.

David Murray

You could be losing that visual amenity value, and you've gone out to walk in the hills surrounding your town or village. So that kind of sense of urbanization from a rural place and all of these things are are cumulative. And there is essentially a planning system which is failing everybody. So instead of it being a listening exercise, it's a fait accompli consultation process.

David Murray

And it's easy to see through that. You don't need to be a big cynic to say, I see that somebody is taking a box through this process to overcome that. For something like this, for a transmission owner like National Grid or Scottish Power or Scottish Southern Electric, they need to go way above and beyond the compliance minimums that are required of them and yet community benefit.

David Murray

The funds for these types of almost compensation are voluntary. So the decision from central government has been these companies will do the right thing because it's the right thing for them to do. And I think that actually sends the wrong signal and wrong message to these communities. In the first instance, it should be mandated, it should be legally obliged for them to have to fund, to improve places with those communities.

David Murray

And there should be a huge amount of listening going on. You know, we talk communication and often it's quick to jump to broadcast and assume that that's all that we need to do. We just need to do that really, really well. All we really, really well is sit quiet and listen.

Jen Roberts

Active listening.

Clare Harris

Active listening and heaving and acting and feeding back. That was another big thing we found. Don't just listen ticket. We tell the come back and see what you've heard and what you will or will not do about it. But at least you've heard it. Yeah. You know.

Jen Roberts

I remember back in, in social impact assessment theory, the, you know, the understanding that even even rumor has social impact like rumor. So a van, a a company van turning up in a rural place, knowing that this system is changing, is coming down the line. The very occurrence of that van in that place will be causing a rumor that can then bring social impacts.

Jen Roberts

And so actually, you don't have to do specifically anything sometimes to already have this cascade of impacts. I think then actually that's really helpful. What I'm hearing here that I think would be really, also really helpful to maybe unpack and expand on is, you know, we're talking about a national grid infrastructure program. So a national led overseen in some way, I'm assuming grid infrastructure and improvement program.

Jen Roberts

So why is it that somebody might have multiple letters from different organizations landing on their map, if this is a national program that is being overseen and coordinated in some way, is that what's happening in reality in these places, and how does that come to be? Perhaps? David, I'll go to you.

David Murray

Yeah. So what we might see and this this is it may sound anecdotal, but it's from hearing from these communities that we brought together for this listening exercise through the deliberative engagement process. So these were 45 people that we recruited through sortition process, which is like a civil lottery process that says you get a different letter on your doormat, we're going to pay you for your time and to hear your opinions, and we're going to get a kind of a great, eclectic mix of people from lots of different backgrounds.

David Murray

So there's a microcosm of society, or at least of these communities that are most impacted. And in doing that, we we listened intently to to what was what was being said. One of the things that we were hearing was that in some places, the field that's kind of picked to the field in our mind, there are lots of ideas for that field, which aren't just for that field to remain a field, that it could be that it's a solar farm idea.

David Murray

It could be and it could be preplanning. It could be that it's up as a potential space for housing development. It could be that it's up for national grid infrastructure, at least partially, or that it's being impacted by it. It could be that it's a new reservoir or other major infrastructure project. It could be that is near two or 3 or 4 or whatever number we might be working on this.

David Murray

So even though there may be a joined up decision process for energy infrastructure, that is through a very messy, not yet joined up national plan for how we develop all infrastructure. And and then if you do look at the energy system itself, yes, we are talking about one big transmission owner, but we're also having huge changes in the sector itself to try to accommodate making these changes.

David Murray

So bits of National grid kind of being moved out of themselves to turn into something different. And the national energy system operator and the owners are no longer owners, they're operators, etc.. So all of this is happening at the same time. So you can see why. Like you go back to the rumor thing of seeing that kind of UK parallel works fan or whatever it might be that's in front of you being.

David Murray

Oh, why are they here? What are they doing? Or the rumor is that we're about to have, you know, a million pylons or whatever it might be that that is going to cause that kind of sense of of disempowerment and uncertainty and and nervousness. Yeah. And that's what I think we're, we're really missing from, from this project and from all projects of all scales.

David Murray

How do communities get not just a voice, but a say in what goes where and what it looks like and what impact that has?

Matt Hannon

So just with that in mind, something you said a moment ago, clear that it's not a one size fits all? Not necessarily. All communities are responding in the same way. You obviously found some some common themes and we'll put all the in the show notes here. We'll put the link to the the report you mentioned, and also the kind of deep dive interactive scrolling website which was fantastic, that was pulled together.

Jen Roberts

But just maybe any reflections on how different communities or different members of singular communities are reacting differently or the same to this disruption? Where are you seeing differences because you looked across quite a number of areas, right?

Clare Harris

Yeah, totally. So we've got storytellers called ourselves storytellers, essentially journalists all up and down from like we've got some in East Anglia covering kind of Suffolk around that area. We've got someone in Teesside, Humber, Aberdeenshire, all over. So we're we're seeing differences up and down the country, but actually we're seeing differences in the type of response to this kind of development.

Clare Harris

And it's not all bad. I think that's the most important thing. We've just talked quite a lot about the real kind of the concerns around this that people are feeling, but they are not the only voices. And I think the biggest thing we've found through this post is, is that there is nuance and there is room for ambition.

Clare Harris

There's room for thinking differently, and there's certainly room for thinking flexibly about what what's happening here in terms of the good upgrade, I suppose. Two points to your point, Jen, about that accumulation. You know, a lot of communities we've spoken to, they don't necessarily differentiate between others as a transmission project. This is a generation project, especially in Scotland when a lot of us has been going on for years, you know.

Clare Harris

So I think that's important to state, and it's an example of a community that we've done a lot of work with that's featured in our work in East Lamu, who are taking a slightly different approach. So there at the moment, last time we spoke to them, they're facing a raft of around 14 separate development applications. So that includes transmission infrastructure.

Clare Harris

You know there's on shoring of power lines from the North Sea, but it also includes wind potentially solar. But to them it's all part of the same picture. It's all energy right. So they they're really interesting because they decided right. We're getting all these letters on the doormat all from different people. We don't know what's going on and where how.

Clare Harris

So we're going to get them together. So the chair of the community council, who is a fantastic guy, Chris Bruce, said, look, we're going to get you all in a room. You're going to get all together at one time, and we're going to ask you what's going on, which is what they did. And that really, really helped.

Clare Harris

And it put in motion a process of dialog that has been much more fruitful. People know what's coming. People are able to ask the questions and crucially, on the side of the developers and the transmission operators that are willing players who are part of that as well. So it already feels for them more, I suppose, acceptable to their community in terms of what's happening, because they're much better informed fundamentally, and they have a stake.

Clare Harris

So they have set up an organization called the East Laminar Energy Projects Partnership, which has a lead officer, which is a brilliant example. She's called Beth of how it could be done in certain places where there's one key person in the middle of the community, the local council, the transmission operators, the developers, who is ensuring there's a line of dialog there.

Clare Harris

So I think that shows that not all communities are the same. And even within those communities, there's definitely room for for shifts. Have a look at the video. But there's one woman, Barbara, who's really struck me out and filmed, and she was saying she she bought a steady in Inner Wick, which is a lovely little village and east.

Clare Harris

You're just outside Dunbar. She went there for a peace and quiet. She's retired. She heard her substation was getting built outside, just like across the road. And at first she was like, oh, that doesn't sound good. I don't want a substation across the road. And then this, this kind of communication work and dialog work started happening with the community council, and she gradually learned more about what was happening and why it was happening, crucially.

Clare Harris

And she said, well, you know, maybe, maybe there's something positive we can get out of this. And now she feels that she's accepting of the process because she can see that the other things that will come with that, whether that's nature regeneration, work in the area because of the community benefits, whether that's a heat network that they're looking at with the local council.

Clare Harris

She feels part of that process.

Jen Roberts

Let me let me just dig into that a little bit more then and here. David, listening else you'd like to expand on because I think that's really interesting hearing what sort of positives, you know, we set out with a slightly negative frame. Let's talk about those positives. And so what as well as agency and in this case in the Islamic Muir area, we've got communities coordinating a forum essentially on their own terms.

Jen Roberts

And that is incredibly empowering to do that and to be listened to and so on. But actually beyond that, in terms of material benefit to a community, what sort of thing are we talking about?

David Murray

Yeah, I mean, it feels like the kind of antidote to the first part of our conversation, doesn't it, where there's this sense of disempowerment and uncertainty. And we just heard about how local population has taken that power back into their own hands to to coordinate and convene, to get to grips with and understand what's happening. And, and that very much kind of the power to the people, pardon the pun, is, is a bit of, of what we're seeing.

David Murray

We're kind of because of the changing needs of how we develop power and how we make use of it. We can continue to just feel like we're having it done to and at, as all we can try to engage with the organizations and the stakeholders around that decision making to to get to grips with what's happening and to make sure that at least you're making the most out of that kind of short term disruption and to to really get a sense of clarity of what's happening and why and where and how and all of those things.

David Murray

So we did see within some of the work that the Rachel Cox, a fantastic academic who was on this project with us to and kind of looked at with a process that had a whole host of statements called a Q sort, and there's a whole host of statements about this system. And people were forced to, on their own, forced to make the decision about which of these statements they felt most strongly about, and then which two statements they may feel kind of second most strongly about into a pyramid of statements was was made.

David Murray

And then all of those came back into Rachel to, to look at. And then a kind of quantum analysis of that qualitative data came through, and it showed that there was a group of people that remember, this is from people across England and Scotland, across communities that either are or are about to have the impacts of these, these major infrastructure projects happening to or with them.

David Murray

The first was power to the people. It was that community should always be offered a chance to own a part of grid infrastructure. That cost of compensating households and making community benefit payments work needs to be kind of fair levels and and in an engaging way for, for people to have skin in the game. The second group was a kind of pressing reasons to act as a kind of both the right on climate activists or those who really do feel that strong sense of principles base for nature, for climate action, and would so strongly agree to those sentiments that even when it is happening and having possibly some detrimental impact to themselves or their own

David Murray

lives, still believe that it's the right thing for for us to do, then there's probably pragmatists who say, essentially, this is a transactional thing. You're you're doing something. It's having an impact on me. I want to be compensated for that. And the fourth is this kind of strong sense of developer distrust that it doesn't matter what you say or do next.

David Murray

We just don't believe that the government knows best or that these big companies know best. And we think that there should be regulations to ensure that existing funding for things like libraries and youth clubs and other things cannot be withdrawn from community benefit when money, new money is awarded, you know, so it's not a it just needs to be different.

David Murray

It can't be. It has to be additional. It can't be just a way a back door to to funding the same things that we've already wanted in these papers. I'm a huge optimist, and I think you have to be in this kind of line of work. So I like to think about that positive. What if? So what if I could be a proactive consumer?

David Murray

What if I could produce energy that meets my needs and maybe more than I need? And what if I get paid for making that energy that somebody else a neighbor might make use of? And what positive impact might that have at the other end of this huge change to the decarbonization job of of our energy system? Does that mean that there are fewer wind turbines offshore?

David Murray

Because I've met more of my needs where I need that energy, and I've been able to make energy available to others. And so there may be a rebalancing. And I think what we've seen with the example that Clare was using in Scotland is, is a hint of that. It's a kind of another spotlight on actually, there are lots of things we can do here.

David Murray

We we need to be pragmatic whilst we're thinking about some of these, you know, really hard to digest and complicated kind of trade offs that are happening. And we never asked for them to happen. But here we are. You know, we the people who are on on the planet right now, we didn't make these decisions to industrialize the country that we're in.

David Murray

We went through industrialization. And and yet we know that the impacts of that and the impacts that we're still having today do have an impact on future generations. So we know we have to act as well. And unfortunately, it is uncomfortable. And there are trade offs and there are losers as well as winners. But we have to be pragmatic to be able to ensure that we do have a truly sustainable society.

Matt Hannon

So with all that in mind, and there is quite a lot to keep in mind here. I'm just wondering what you both think and feel about where we're at and what we need to do next. And what do we do with all of this, these insights that you've you've been able to so usefully capture? I think there's pieces here about trust and legitimacy or perceived legitimacy of these organizations that you've come out of, of the researchers about how you engage with and enable participation of communities.

Jen Roberts

There's a piece there about how you compensate and share the benefits of that. That might be payments. It might be a share of ownership. There's a lot here. So in a couple of minutes you won't be able to provide the, you know, guiding light. But there's just a couple of things we can take away. What should listeners do with with this?

David Murray

Apologies for taking more airspace, but I'd love to go first with this, because the big thing that we tried to get and we did, we secured public commitment from all three of the transmission owners in owning a set of principles for effective engagement with communities through community benefit funds. And there were five things that we said. These derived from those deliberative engagement and kind of conversations with with people affected, that the five things are transparency, listening and involving communities, empowering people locally, having a meaningful, lasting impact and fairness.

David Murray

And those were the things that mattered most above all else. And those were the things that we took at sustainability first to the transmission owners and said, if if you gave that transparency, if you showed that listening and engagement of communities in effective communication and enabled empowered communities to make decisions, removing barriers, hearing their voices, creating space for communities to share their own hopes and aspirations for for their own places and how they're going to shape their neighborhoods.

David Murray

And you show that lasting impact and you do that fairly minimizing disruption, sharing the benefits equitably. Then you may well find that there is more of the Islam and your kind of experience across the whole of of the UK, where the the most impact for these grid developments is coming.

Jen Roberts

Clare?

Clare Harris

Yeah, 100%. I, I think you know that that is certainly the aim and like David am an optimist, I guess from the sort of public facing and the media point of view, which is the world in which I'm working. You said at the start of the chat around the headlines, all the kind of big headlines we're seeing about people being angry about pylons and such, like, I suppose my big takeaway was, and I've spoken about other events, is how can we as communicators and journalists and people working with a voice?

Clare Harris

How can we make that space for all voices to be heard, hope we make just as David, as doing? Whether the industry is, how can we make sure that that there is that space for nuance? There are many people out there who can hold two opinions at once and can think about the flexibility we need to give credit to ordinary people, to be intelligent enough to to go along a journey with this and sometimes take that off with the smooth.

Clare Harris

So I think my big takeaway would, would be to be appreciate that, maybe look a little bit further and listen to people. Don't dismiss people. I think if we can stop political figures using the terms Nimby and blocker, that would also be good.

Jen Roberts

Yeah, it would very much.

Matt Hannon

Thank you.

Jen Roberts

I think that's fantastic. And the other thing that I'm really hearing from the both of you as well is, to not go in assuming that blank canvas or like that, nothing has happened here before. And I think that, you know, we have talked about this before, but it's still very, very true. And we talk about it because it's true.

Jen Roberts

And it's important that there are other things happening in these communities. There are other activities going on, and we need to be respectful of that. So it's amazing to hear your examples of stories that you were hearing of efforts to bring those forums together, not just as one independent project doing and abiding by those principles, David, that you spoke about?

Jen Roberts

But as a collective, and that's that to me that's really come out of the conversation that I've been hearing from you both.

Matt Hannon

As well. And maybe just a thank you to you both, not just for your time today, but for the project in general. Yeah, I think bringing to bear. Some of the the research and the rigor, the deliberative methods is really important. But then that is a foundation for Clare, for the storytelling exchange, to then present that story in this rich and textured manner, this nuanced manner, and in a highly, highly really accessible 21st century manner where, you know, I'm able to click and listen and play and watch.

Matt Hannon

And that, I think is sorely missing. And I think actually a lack of that has fed into this polarization around these issues. So Bravo. Well done. Keep up the good work. We'll make sure we got a link for listeners in there, and we'd love to have you both along again soon to hear a little bit more about how this works progressing.

Jen Roberts

Thank you.

Matt Hannon

Okay, until next time. Thanks.

Jen Roberts

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Matt Hannon

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Jen Roberts

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Matt Hannon

Thanks so much for listening and we'll see you next time.

Jen Roberts

See you next time.

Matt Hannon

Bye bye.