117: How is community-centred climate adaptation being nurtured and delivered?
Climate change adaptation is often discussed in terms of plans, policies and infrastructure, but what does it actually take to build climate-resilient communities?
In this episode, Jen Roberts and Matt Hannon explore how adaptation is being delivered in practice, the role communities play in inspiring, shaping and leading resilience, and what we've learned about what works – and what doesn’t. Joined by Jo Kerr, CEO of Verture, the climate resilience charity, they discuss the importance of locally led action, partnership working, and ensuring climate resilience goes hand in hand with social justice. Together, they unpack the key ingredients for nurturing and delivering community-centred climate adaptation.
Links:
Verture : https://verture.org.uk/
Climate Change Committee report A Well Adapted UK:
https://www.theccc.org.uk/publication/a-well-adapted-uk/
Jo Kerr:
We can't be climate resilient unless we're tackling societal challenges like poverty, because communities that are experiencing poverty can't be claimed resilient. So there are some almost proxy measures of if child poverty numbers are coming down and those measures are in place, then I believe that we will be a more resilient society.
Jen Roberts:
Hello and welcome to local zero, the Strathclyde Institute for Sustainable Communities podcast. I'm Jen Roberts and.
Matt Hannon:
I'm Matt Hannon, and in today's episode, we're exploring what it takes to build climate resilient communities in a changing climate.
Jen Roberts:
Over the past year on Local Zero, we've been discussing the fundamentals of climate adaptation, such as how our homes and neighbourhoods can adapt to climate change, and the growing challenge of multiple climate hazards occurring at the same time.
Matt Hannon:
But while we know adaptation is increasingly important, a big question remains how do we actually deliver it? In particular, what is being done on the ground to help communities prepare for the risks of climate change? And what role can local people play in shaping and delivering these adaptation solutions?
Jen Roberts:
To help us explore these questions, we're joined by Joe Kerr, CEO of Virtue Scotland's climate resilience charity. Virtue works to create the connections, actions and insights needed to help people and places thrive as our climate changes.
Matt Hannon:
Together, we'll learn about what climate resilient communities look like in practice, what works, and what we can do to ensure communities are prepared for the challenges that lie ahead.
Jen Roberts:
So before we get into the discussion, a quick reminder to follow local zero on LinkedIn to stay up to date with the podcast and to share your feedback and suggestions, just search for Local Zero podcast.
Matt Hannon:
And wherever and however you are listening. Don't forget to subscribe so you never miss an episode.
Jen Roberts:
Matt. Welcome back! I haven't seen you since you just got back from your holiday. How are you? How was it? Tell us about it.
Matt Hannon:
Jen. Thank you. It was. It was lovely. It was two weeks in Italy. We were lucky enough to escape. I'd like to say escape the dull, drizzly summer that we've been having in the UK, which obviously would be completely false and incorrect because it's been a scorcher. No.
Jen Roberts:
Matt, it's rained, is rained for the two weeks you're away. It's been grey and cold and it's rained. Don't be fooled.
Matt Hannon:
Scotland would be better about that. Makes you feel a lot better about what I'm about to tell you. I ended up. It turns out I can't really do Mediterranean July and August, and I melt like a clip in the sun. But, I mean, it was hot. I mean, really hot. It was 38 degrees most days. It was central Italy and most people listening to this.
Matt Hannon:
Oh, that might be I tell you, there's a there's a degree. There's I think there's a switch above about 30 which starts to put me into low power mode. But two weeks, I think I have quite a few reflections, actually, about how the climate is changing there, but also maybe some lessons that the UK, which is, you know, at to enter its fifth heatwave, I think, and is now recorded in.
Matt Hannon:
I think most of England is now recorded in drought. What they might be able to learn from Italy. But just beginning with, you know, at the start 38 degrees is far too hot and life without air con is a struggle, a massive struggle. I know you've been you've been all over Australia.
Jen Roberts:
It's different. It's different types of heat. So what's your 38 degrees? Are we talking humid heat or dry heat or variable?
Matt Hannon:
I don't know just. Was there an oven?
Jen Roberts:
Was there a wind? Was there a breeze?
Matt Hannon:
Occasionally. But you're not you know, we're near the coast. So it was it was violently warm and very really nowhere to cool off. But but air con, there's this interesting debate on social media and in the mainstream media at the moment about this kind of, you know, push back against air con from certain quarters and, you know, electricity consumption also, you know, it's kind of like, grow up, get on with it.
Matt Hannon:
We've never had it didn't have air con for like, you know, however many millennia. And we made do without it. I think it really is the difference between a kind of liveable environment and not. And I had one really interesting chat with Taxi Driver to the airport. I was saying, you know, is this normal here? It says, no, this is way hotter, way, way hot about riding 5 or 6 degrees hotter, each day for the last six weeks.
Matt Hannon:
And it normally is. And it says, but it's okay, I've got aircon. I didn't have aircon in my flat for the last four years, and I've got a young family and it's been hell, he says. I just installed it in spring and he says, I've been living the dream. And I said, how much does it cost to to run it about €3 a day.
Matt Hannon:
So even if you're running that for 100 days, you know, which isn't isn't unbelievable. You know, in that climate, €3,000 to keep the keep the aircon on. But but other reflections Jen. Like it was weird. The water scarcity. There was just nowhere near as pronounced as England right now, which is, you know, from the sky when we were crossing back to, to Scotland, the brownish place that we saw was a south east of England.
Matt Hannon:
Now they have had exceptional temperatures, had been exceptional year, but Italy was verdant, it was green, it was lush. And and I think we were talking in the kick around. You were saying you've got some theories about this and it's actually about geology, which I am not a geologist, but how the earth stores the water, which maybe we don't have that the same to the UK.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah. I mean, I can happily go off sideways into a bit of a job because I'm not sure how many. Well, I'm not sure how many of our listeners would be delighted, but yeah, absolutely. I'd be to do a geology be to do the soil retention, how the soil is retain that moisture and also how much the aquifer supplying those systems are drawn down.
Jen Roberts:
And we know that the South of England is using more water than can be replenished in its main aquifer. And when you're away, Matt, you missed the Commonwealth Games that were here. I did most the period that you away.
Matt Hannon:
Yeah big athletics fan amongst others.
Jen Roberts:
So it was it was great. But the friends that I had visiting over that period, when they first arrived, they were like, oh, look at this, look at this grass. It is living, it is green because they were coming from dying south, where they haven't seen green grass for for weeks and months, and they were on a hosepipe ban and everything else.
Jen Roberts:
And they stood in Queen's Park. You know, one of the parks local to me and could see the view. And we're just loving the shade that the trees and the plants could give. Because if you lose that, if you lose that green, lush grass which we still have here, you lose the kind of temperature cooling effects of that vegetation.
Jen Roberts:
And they could really, really feel it. And also they might live in towards the south of England, not not even that far south, but they are peoples who are happiest in sort of 16, 17 degrees. And you might say your temperature zone is what I know, mid 20s.
Matt Hannon:
High teens, low.
Jen Roberts:
12 degrees.
Matt Hannon:
No, I think there's a split somewhere where you see this in Glasgow at the time, people chopping trees down or into odd shapes just to get the sun, just to keep, you know, get that kind of, you know, from May onwards. And honestly in Italy, you know, and I suspect this is the same in the south of England.
Matt Hannon:
Now it's about building shade, and the best shade you can build is green shade and the most comfortable places you could sit there was, you know, when you had a sort of pergola of wisteria or, you know, some cypress trees and, and, you know, we have to green our landscapes. We have two green, rural, urban. This is integral.
Matt Hannon:
It's about locking up that water. I think the last couple of reflections I had, I think before, I want to hear a little bit about what's happened was I've been away. One was the mosquitoes now. Oh I had to do a little bit of history and I'm not I'm not going to do a potted of this because I'm no historian.
Matt Hannon:
But I didn't realise, I think once upon a time how bad malaria was in Italy and other parts of Europe. Really bad. I don't thankfully don't have it in the same way now. But what was frightening was how many Asian tiger mosquitoes they were there. Now, these are bruisers. These are real big beasts that come out, and they don't adhere to the normal practice of your good old domestic kind of European.
Matt Hannon:
They will come and bite you in the middle of the day. They don't really care. But.
Jen Roberts:
Do they, do they focus on one person? Is there one person that's the tastiest and most.
Matt Hannon:
To eat? My wife easily. Yeah. You got gold. I mean, I did as well, but they mostly liked her.
Jen Roberts:
Okay, so they hit that rule.
Matt Hannon:
Yes, but the concentration of these, these insects that are there now, and, you know, the extent of what they might be carrying other disease, again, a real concern. And I think the last thing I wanted to reflect on was how little I saw of any renewable power. I've been in Spain the year before, solar, absolutely everywhere. I mean, fields and fields and fields and stuff.
Matt Hannon:
And we've had discussions about this and how to compensate communities and other episodes. I saw a bit of solar, not a lot. I saw one onshore wind farm during my entire stay, and I had to travel about 100 miles to. I didn't travel to it, I might add. I went for a swim in a lake. Okay. I'm not.
Matt Hannon:
I'm not that sad, but I think I saw in the total about six wind turbines. So really interesting to see all of that renewable power locked up. There wasn't obvious how they were capturing it.
Jen Roberts:
That's really interesting. And it wasn't because you were in a in on a holiday in a protected space or.
Matt Hannon:
Well, I think it's a good question, and I'm glad you asked that because, you know, we were in an area which was, you know, I'm no expert on Italy and, you know, it's vernacular and the heritage of the buildings, but a lot of the places did have strict rules on this. So the last place we were staying, no aircon because the heritage rules dictated they couldn't install it.
Matt Hannon:
And so.
Jen Roberts:
It.
Matt Hannon:
Was bleak, but equally they couldn't install solar. So it's the same issue we've talked about time and time again in these heritage places. Western well, lots of parts of Glasgow, Edinburgh, bath, York, a lot of these places that have very strict rules about that built environment. Well.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah.
Matt Hannon:
There isn't the same scope. So anyway, lots to think about.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah, it's kind of interesting because I think I've said on this podcast before, and I live in the 1920s, 30s flat and the way it's designed designs out overheating. So we did have an issue when we replaced the windows to get proper good double glazing, that they walked in the south facing right and the window panes warped in a way that the installers had never seen or experienced before.
Jen Roberts:
And thankfully, a ten year guarantee set that that was not too much of an issue for us. A bit disruptive, sure, but besides that, the flat is really well designed so that it doesn't overheat the bedrooms at the back of the flat, blah blah blah blah. And a balcony that shades from a lot of the, the sun.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah, but we get the soul again anyway, so it's actually really, really well designed and operates very well, even in the summer climates. So it surprises me that these heritage buildings, which I would have thought would have been, you know, where we forget dismissively.
Matt Hannon:
Assume that modern building grown up in a in a hot climate. So I don't you know, I was learning by the end of the two weeks I understood when to which side to shut the shutters and the windows, when to shut the shutter. But open the window then. And there's a whole process, a whole process. I was alien to, but I also think when people become more reliant on aircon and we build buildings with aircon in mind, we forget how to do this.
Matt Hannon:
So another piece about adaptation I'm sure we'll come back to. But one of the notes you had on this list here was Garden Chat. Right? So I'm really keen to get into this trade stories about how this incredibly and abnormally warm year has been for our government.
Jen Roberts:
Well, it's been this kind of you, and actually I will if I can try and circle back to the aircon thinking about gardens and thinking about outdoor spaces. But yeah, this has been a really strange year, and I realised that you and I, I haven't had a garden chat for a while, and the fact that gardens are just doing strange things at strange times, and I, I'm getting this, this really weird sense the last few weeks when like, you know, the I very I was actually, you know, already picking black blackberries.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah. When was this. This is maybe 3 or 4 weeks.
Matt Hannon:
Ago falling off our trip.
Jen Roberts:
App was already and it's like, but and you know, and so I just felt like things are really either I was like, oh my goodness, I missed summer. Like what has happened? But then things are just happening in really, really weird times. And then, I mean, this particular I had a really sad tragedy this morning, tragedy of the tomato plants on the balcony.
Jen Roberts:
Because basically I need to I need to water those guys twice a day. And I'm running out and I don't I don't have enough wastewater created in my flat through, like, you know, shower. You might have a bucket and a shower or use your washing up water. But these these guys are thirsty. And my balcony plants this year are really thirsty because of the style of rain.
Jen Roberts:
So they don't get too much rain when it does rain. But the side of rain that we had when you were away was the kind of misty type. There was some deluges, but it was the kind of the type that you think you're going to be okay, and suddenly you're really soaked through. Yes. But yeah. And so actually this morning I looked at the, the balcony tomatoes and they'd gone, they'd gone completely like, like just it's so sad.
Jen Roberts:
They've snapped. They're basically they toppled the God. I gave them a light like hoping that I'm going to be able to inject water life back into them. But I think they might have gone. And it is this, this, this intense kind of water need that they have.
Matt Hannon:
So we've got an early harvest. And this is what been reported by the National National Farmers Union, farmers across England. I think they were harvesting weeks like literally, I think in some cases like six weeks early. And you could see that from the ER, you know, a lot of these crops had already been been done. Yeah.
Jen Roberts:
Well some of the one thing I noticed when I cycling around Norfolk was that some crops were very, very ready ahead of the head of things and others were much so. I think it also very much depended on exactly when you sold your crop. But maybe that's again a bit niche.
Matt Hannon:
And I've seen more generally, you know, yields a way down, way, way down than what they would normally be.
Jen Roberts:
Prices are going to be.
Matt Hannon:
But maybe keeping on the garden theme and be interesting for listeners to reflect on this and to get in touch with us. How the, you know, the hosepipe ban has impacted them because, you know, one thing I've always reflected on is and it goes back to climate adaptation, which we're going to get stuck right into in a moment, is why houses aren't required to have some kind of wastewater capture or even rainwater capture systems.
Matt Hannon:
So. So why this isn't built into new housing and why, why, oh why are we not funding the free provision of these things? Just water butts. Just just a water. But right. Just stick it cost like, I don't know, £40, maybe 50 or 60. If you've got the the kind of gadget gizmo that connects into your house pipe.
Matt Hannon:
If we were to provide these to houses, this, this would go a long way to having that water when people need it in terms of these hosepipe bans. But I think we're just so used we've we've covered this on previous episodes. We're so used to the profligate consumption of water. And those days, I'm afraid, are behind us. But they're also in the days of deluges of rain, either individual days in the height of summer or two months of grim weather in winter.
Matt Hannon:
And we need to capture that water, surely.
Jen Roberts:
Well, do you know what? This would be a brilliant. I mean, I try not to put tasters out for future episodes too much in these chats, but it would be a fantastic topic for us to tackle, because I do know that there is quite a strong argument that our constant waste of greywater. So water that's been used, you know, a bit, but the fact that we just shoved that down the drains to then go and get treated is, is it's deeply problematic on lots of levels and that the regulations and so on are quite, tailored towards making that very, very difficult when we actually really need to go into a much more circular model
Jen Roberts:
of how we use and reuse water. So, yeah, exactly that. I also wonder how, you know, again, my friends from South were saying that they've kind of redone their garden and the types of species that they've they've been growing in their garden to be much more drought resistant and resistant. I know that before you went on holiday, I think the only garden chat we've had this year, I was saying that anything that's in the garden this year is just it's out for itself, apart from some peas, which I have watered everything else in the garden, I'm like, do you know what?
Jen Roberts:
You've been established now for five years. You've got to personify.
Matt Hannon:
You're a grown, you're a grown up yourself that. Yeah, you don't need me.
Jen Roberts:
But if it's okay, what I might do is just circle around. I was thinking about what you're saying around the air conditioning and aircon unit, and I have been aware that there is a at the moment, we've got different types of heat pumps and there is a way of having kind of air to air. Pumps which allow for you to heat up your home and also to cool down your home, and.
Matt Hannon:
That you're in Italy, I might add, very popular.
Jen Roberts:
That's great, because I wanted to ask that whether you were seeing if the little nerdy part of you was, of course, looking at some people say.
Matt Hannon:
Busman's Holiday, Jen. For me, I only I only pick holidays on the basis of their heat pump penetration.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah, the community co-operative that I'm part of, loco home retrofit. We have also had a thread of sharing holiday photographs with pictures of yourself next to other people's heat pumps, just admiring them or listening to them.
Matt Hannon:
It's a cruel affliction.
Jen Roberts:
Well, I'm glad you had a good break. Did your garden survive you being away?
Matt Hannon:
Thankfully, the rain sorted it out. Yeah, yeah. No. But I think given I think you and I said at the beginning of this, we didn't want to lead with all of the grim headlines, I think listeners will know that what's happening in Europe and the UK is, is unprecedented. And I think they'll also know that we're about to go into another heatwave.
Matt Hannon:
And some of the impacts of this are being, you know, screamed at the tops of various organisations. We've heard just this week that I think the UK heatwaves this year may have cost the UK economy £4.4 billion. Some of the assumptions here, and depending this, other productivity drops about 3% for every degree above 30 degrees. And what we're here today, however, is not to talk about that, but it's to talk about what we can do at a local level, at a community level, what what kind of getting ready for climate change looks like, I think.
Matt Hannon:
Is that fair?
Jen Roberts:
Yeah. That's fair. We've had these previous episodes. We've explored what is climate adaptation. We've explored what a climate adapted home and street looks like and feels like and is experienced. And we talked a bit in there about climate adapted behaviours, the sorts of things you were just reflecting on that about you screwing around your Italian villa shuttering. Yeah.
Matt Hannon:
So it's a new hobby of mine.
Jen Roberts:
But I think today we were really, really keen to hear a bit more from kind of, I want to say the front line, but I'm trying to think of a better way of putting that. But how do you support communities to make changes at a community level? Yes. So that's what we're going to be getting into in a bit more detail.
Jen Roberts:
And it does feel incredibly timely, given everything we've just said and the fact that the last few times have been recording a podcast episode, we've been looking at another heatwave in the face. And that's exactly the situation today.
Matt Hannon:
We have. And I think this also comes hot in the heels of last episode with Chris White, Professor Chris White, also from Strathclyde University, talking about, well, what we were colloquially terming climate hazard stacking. Not Chris's term, I might add, because it's it's totally made up by us. But, you know, this is it's adapting for a very, very complex future where you could have three, 4 or 5 different hazards kind of stacking on top of each other.
Matt Hannon:
So this is really important stuff. But I want us to take this forward in a positive mindset. Yeah. What can we do? What can people take away from this. So I think without further ado, should we bring our guests in?
Jen Roberts:
Let's bring in our guest yet.
Jo Kerr:
Hi, I'm Joe Kerr, I'm the CEO of the Climate Resilience Charity. We are the only charity in the UK that uses adaptation and resilience as a primary lens. And my background is actually in the anti-poverty space, joining the dots between social justice and climate justice.
Jen Roberts:
Amazing. Thanks so much for coming along today. I think that background and kind of anti-poverty is also incredibly valuable for the sort of conversation we're going to have to day and the sort of things you're interested about on local zero. So like, already excited to have you on board, even extra excited. But today's conversation is really drilling into some of the details on enabling climate adaptation from the ground up, I suppose.
Jen Roberts:
And but I suppose before we even get into some of that, I thought it was useful to maybe discuss or hear from you what the term adaptation means for you, because it's still quite an ambiguous term in the public mind, and which can be quite challenging. So. So my question to start with would be like, what does climate adaptation mean for you?
Jen Roberts:
And what does climate resilience kind of mean for you at a community level as well?
Jo Kerr:
Absolutely. So yeah, this almost becomes like the million dollar question. And I would start with a confession that when I was first looking at the the rule with virtue, I don't think I had a feeling firm understanding of what climate adaptation was or is. And I think that is true for most people. There's interesting survey data. Know that saying that people do know what climate adaptation means.
Jo Kerr:
I take that survey data to represent that. People know what the word climate means, and they know what the word adaptation means. But when I have conversations with, you know, the quote unquote general public people in my neighbourhood, I don't think it's there. And I don't think it's distinct from climate action. And people's understanding of climate action is definitely still more towards the mitigation space and how how we understand it at virtue is really a recognition that Scotland and the whole of the UK isn't yet climate ready, and we need to take action and we talk about adaptation action to become climate resilient.
Jo Kerr:
And that's to all of the climate impacts, the climate hazards that we see. And obviously, you know, we are talking in August 2026 where we've had a lot of climate impacts that we're seeing more so maybe in England, but definitely with wildfires in in Scotland and really terrible heatwaves that have caused a lot of problems. Are we ready for those temperatures?
Jo Kerr:
Are we ready for those other impacts like flooding and those storms and of course the erosion? No, frankly, we're not, I suppose, where that translates into that community resilience. And what we would ideally like to see is that we're not just surviving, you know. So we're not we're not choosing between suffering and survival. We've got a future that we can feel positive about, that we can feel hopeful about, and that communities can thrive.
Jo Kerr:
And that is, for some people, it can seem a bit wishy washy, you know, what are you what are we protecting in the built environment? And, you know, I'm up for those conversations as well. And that's absolutely part of the picture. But if we can tell a story for people that there's a future where they where their children, where their grandchildren can thrive in neighbourhoods that are vibrant and light, lives that are positive, then what are we doing it for?
Matt Hannon:
That really helps to set the scene. And often with these things, it's always useful to point to examples or, you know, cases of of where good things are being done. So I don't know if through your own work with virtue, there are any examples of of where good cases of climate adaptation are coming to the for whether a particular areas that you think, you know, maybe we are making good progress on because what I often hear is much more negative kind of reflections on where we are in terms of climate adaptation.
Matt Hannon:
And I think to get out of that place often, you need to point at where good work is being done. Are there any examples you can point to?
Jen Roberts:
Yeah. Is there anywhere that is ready Joe. And what are they ready for?
Jo Kerr:
So we recently me, 26, had the well adapted UK report from the Climate Change Commission and it highlighted two, I think, key studies of community climate resilience, one which was the Glasgow region and specific to two neighbourhoods in Glasgow, the Gorbals in Easterhouse. And this was a project called Creative Climate Futures that virtually led. We looked at some mapping to understand where in the Greater Glasgow area there is the overlapping challenges of socioeconomic deprivation, flood risk and heat risk, and identified those two neighbourhoods as a particular hotspots.
Jo Kerr:
And then we built relationships. So it's all about deep relationships with established, we'd call them anchor organisations who are already deeply rooted in those communities. So you don't have a climate charity parachuting in. And we built relationships and we actually also brought in artists to those areas. So creativity, creative climate, futures, creativity was at the heart of the projects and to give tools to have different types of discussions, but also to help with that real envisioning of what the future could look like, and that encompassed what challenges people felt and what fears people had, but also what hopes people had for their for their descendants in their places.
Jo Kerr:
And it was really also about meeting people where they're at. And often people were coming in engaging with that project, talking about cost of living challenges, costing, talking about food security, you know, not having enough to feed their families, talking about, you know, those choices between heating and eating that we talk about. So some real challenges, but also incredibly proud communities as well.
Jo Kerr:
And particular I think heat risk in the Gorbals, particular flood risk in Easterhouse but also flood risk in the Gorbals. And and it was a really about a three year journey. And that journey is still continuing, actually, even though the projects ended. So I can't say that the Gorbals needs to house our climate resilient places, but what I can say is that the communities have a really good understanding of what climate risks they are experiencing and could experience to a greater extent in the future.
Jo Kerr:
They have, through community groups, the the bigger anchor organisations and also tiny micro organisations. They're taking different climate actions, some of which more in the adaptation space, some of which are in that middle of that. Then between mitigation and adaptation. And those are projects that they feel passionate about. We've got repair cafes, we've got food growing, got tree planting.
Jo Kerr:
And then there's also that bigger kind of broader advocacy space and understanding who owns land, who owns property in in those areas, and what does that mean in terms of access and in terms of action that can be taken? Engaging with Glasgow City Council, having conversations. And I wasn't around for the beginning of the project, but I have heard that going to see Glasgow City Council and maybe there was an initially that uptake around understanding that the Gorbals experience heat risk.
Jo Kerr:
Now the community is able to see. You can see on the weather forecast that the Gorbals has higher temperatures than the rest of Glasgow. You know, this is known and this is because of heat island effect. What are we going to do collaboratively?
Matt Hannon:
And just wanted to kind of follow up on that. So I think that the examples you give speak to the process and they're all on a journey. Absolutely understand that. And that's really imperative to coming out the back end with good solution to a climate change problem or problems. Just wanted to kind of maybe spread the cast the net a little bit further.
Matt Hannon:
Are there any examples you can give of where people have arrived at the end of that journey and, and solutions that they've kind of come up with? And what I guess I'm trying to drive that is for listeners to understand what a change, a positive change to tackle climate adaptation might look like for a given community. Because I have to say, it's was, you know, headlines in the media will often present the high level problem or even the local level problem flooding here, drought there.
Matt Hannon:
It's difficult for people to envisage what the solution looks like.
Jo Kerr:
So I think there are lots of solutions in those projects or in those neighbourhoods within creative climate futures, for example, tree planting, food growing. There's within the Gorbals now there's a walking route with B-plus to highlight the green spaces that do exist in the Gorbals. It's a very time act, you know, it's kind of known at the moment as Glasgow's car park with the low emissions UN.
Jo Kerr:
But to really identify those walking the walking route through the green space and make the most of of that, and also then raising voice to that higher level and but in terms of what would it take to make that whole neighbourhood fully climate resilience? I think there's more, you know, it's into the leadership, it's into the funding streams.
Jo Kerr:
So I think we are looking for transformational change, but we are also in the business of probably incremental improvement towards that change. And another example, I suppose, the thinking about how that change can be enacted. And we've been working so we deliver adaptation Scotland for Scottish Government. So that's our big framing national program. And we have funding through that to work at community level.
Jo Kerr:
And one of the initiatives that we have delivered through that was in the borders. So different context and different landscapes, different hazards entirely to Glasgow. And and that was part of that work was focusing on peoples where flooding from the River Tweed is a really pressing climate concern. And so I think that originally the idea was to run some workshops for three local place planning teams, and what we realised was actually needed was to upskill and support the climate hub in the area.
Jo Kerr:
So that's s pecans South bridges quite a bit adaptation network and and then the so through supporting the hub. And they are then able to take on that locally led action. And they have funding for smaller projects. So we'll often see these smaller projects, be it pocket parks or retrofit initiatives or food growing initiatives, then ladders up to that bigger change.
Jo Kerr:
And so really recognising that now in people's we've got people who are essentially champions of adaptation action, they've had training, they've had support and they've then got priorities around youth engagement. So they've done work with the primary school and for children to kind of be part of designing that future. And then they're looking at work around the Woodlands.
Jo Kerr:
So what can they do to actually maximise the climate benefits of that woodlands and bringing riverside land into community ownership.
Matt Hannon:
So I'm going to give away the generous. But I think the headline for me there is my my question is what does what does a climate what does a community led climate adaptation solution look like. And I think it's a really important point you're raising is it's whatever the client, whatever the community thinks and feels, you know, it should be in the context of it, grounding it in the evidence of that place and go through that, that due process, making sure there's the resources, the knowledge, the skills in order to bring that forward rather than just sort of saying, you know, top down blanket policy, each postcode needs X, Y, or Z.
Matt Hannon:
And because these are, you know, delivered environment, the civic realm of these communities. So, you know, they need to kind of they need to, as you say, co-create these solutions and then own them. So that's really helpful. Thanks, Joe.
Jen Roberts:
I can see as well. I mean, my my mind is is going around lots of different topics here because this is really touching on so many bits, including kind of conversations that I've had previously. And I think that kind of top down approach, Matt isn't too far off, maybe how some local authorities are approaching this matter. And I just want to be really clear, although we're recording this in Glasgow at this point, I'm not referring to Glasgow City Council, but where there will be occasions where it's like, well, in each postcode we're going to need 2 or 3 rain gardens.
Jen Roberts:
We can't have them all in the place that needs it, aligned with what's deemed to be the highest risk, because we need to make sure this is distributed. And it is. So actually it's kind of interesting, like how sometimes these approaches can be taken where they're not necessarily coming from that place of where is that, you know, what is most suited and where is this wanted.
Jen Roberts:
But I'm thinking, Joe here, that it sounds like you start with creativity. You start with that capture of like what? What could this be and what how does this how these sorts of changes align with what people want for that place? Yes, there's an element of skills development and upskilling and perhaps informing, but not necessarily in a mono direction of information.
Jen Roberts:
That is that. But you know, you just mentioned in the Gorbals that that B pathway and so clearly is a link between adaptation and adaptation steps and environmental stewardship and care for the environment around as well. And I'm thinking I honestly I will turn this into a question, but I see this as also being quite complicated in terms of KPIs.
Jen Roberts:
There's relative ideas of key performance indicators, because all these kind of quilt of different activities at different scales, they might not help to necessarily show a particular KPI of like we reduce the risk of flooding by 5% because how do you take these? We're still developing approaches, right? To be able to accommodate for these sometimes quite micro. And that is not to underestimate the effort and care and stewardship led by these different groups, but to translate these these bits and pieces and sometimes quite large bits and pieces into then performance against some sort of adaptation parameter.
Jen Roberts:
And is that something that you come up against in the work and in the projects that, that you're leading on, or the organisations that you're working with around as a kind of narrative for change, or is that something that's not not so much kind of in the forefront.
Jo Kerr:
For how we're measuring adaptation effectiveness? Yeah, it's a huge question. I you may have come across the maximising and adaptation to climate change Mac Hub, which is laid out of King's College London, and it's a hub with spokes across the UK so virtuous. Leading with University of Glasgow, the Scottish spoke and a big part of that work is understanding how effective and transformational adaptation can be, and how will we know when we're getting it right.
Jo Kerr:
And a lot of complexity there, which, you know, some of my colleagues and others, and the Mac hub would be a better place to to speak to perhaps, than I would, I suppose, thinking about it. There are probably three areas that we we need to be looking at. One is the progress indicators for adaptation action. And we've had a lot of progress indicators around the are we building the right partnerships, particularly in Scotland.
Jo Kerr:
You know, are we getting the right collaborations in place. And there's some brilliant stuff with climate ready regions and ensuring that there are there's a claim ready region in every place in the, in Scotland. So, you know, everywhere is covered and we're making progress towards that. And I think where we need to be making more progress is around the delivery.
Jo Kerr:
And we are getting some of that, you know, small projects, ladders up to bigger change stuff. But as time goes on and as we're reaching some of those tipping points, we're going to need to see bigger, larger scale action. So that's how we making progress that we need. Are we doing enough stuff really. And then how are we understanding the impact of that action.
Jo Kerr:
So this was one way to do that. Is our climate hazards having less of an impact on people. You know, are we managing the impacts in the way that we want to. And and then I guess it's going into that area around justice and equity for us as a charity, that there are some element. You know, we really believe at virtue that we can't be climate resilient unless we're tackling societal challenges like poverty, because people in poverty cannot be climate resilient.
Jo Kerr:
It's not possible. So communities that are experiencing poverty can't be climate resilient. So there are, I suppose for me, some almost proxy measures of if we're addressing poverty, if child poverty measures are coming, numbers are coming down and those measures are in place, then I believe that we will be a more resilient society. And and with all of this, you know, the landscape continues to shift.
Jo Kerr:
So it needs to be a real test, learn and iterate approach. I don't really think the linear approaches, although it can be really neat to see. We're going to make a plan, carry out and continue. We've seen time and again, you know, one example is the flooding in and Brecon. And with Storm Babette in 2023, our best laid plans of a flood defence, which was meant to solve that community's problems, that, you know, that defence field very soon after it was built.
Jo Kerr:
So, you know, that kind of openness to iterate and try things and look at cumulative solutions, I think is also really important.
Jen Roberts:
I you are you finding in the varied roles that you occupy, are you finding that communities are coming to you? Or is it often this case of kind of approaching and reaching out to partnerships and these, these regional relationships and using that as a, as a route in, or do you also find that communities are coming to you for help, like how how much of these, I guess, how much do the roles vary and the opportunities vary.
Jo Kerr:
So when we put the call out at the beginning of Creative Climate Futures, once we worked out the right form of words to express what you know, that you know, we weren't necessarily using adaptation, for example, in the language. And and this desire to tackle social and climate challenges together, there was huge demand across the whole of the region and lots of neighbourhoods who were really keen to engage in the work, and that was funded through UK Shared Prosperity Fund, so that the levelling up pot.
Jo Kerr:
So there was money, I suppose, on the table, which makes a really big difference to be able to fund organisations to participate and start to see that progress being made. We work really well and really closely with all of the climate hubs, climate action hubs across Scotland, and I think that is a great mechanism. So again, a funded structure at the moment that can support communities.
Jo Kerr:
And as I said, with the example in Peebles, that was then the route to take things out. So it's not beholden on members of the public, particularly when people have a lot on their plates and more so now than than ever, really, and that it's not beholden on that community to self-organize necessarily. But then they can become involved in a vehicle once it's up and running through the climate hubs.
Matt Hannon:
I wonder, Joe, whether in terms of the communities that are coming forward or the ideas that are coming out, are these solutions to entirely new problems that are emerging in the face of climate change, or are they actually solutions to age old problems that are just getting a lot worse? So I'm thinking, for example, you may have a community that has had flooding, you know, since the dawn of time, but it was a 1 in 100 year issue or, you know, is it 1 in 100 year flood, a now 1 in 20 year floods?
Matt Hannon:
Or and you can say the true. But on the other end of it, you know, in terms of water scarcity south east of England, you know, it's always hosepipe bands have always been a thing, but they're just becoming more frequent. Or are we, you know, just are there just things that are just coming out of the woodwork that we you weren't even expecting?
Matt Hannon:
I suspect it's probably a blend of both, but it paints a picture maybe, of the kinds of issues and challenges that you're having to work with communities to face together.
Jo Kerr:
Yeah, we were talking today and yesterday about Golspie in the further north in Scotland. And, you know, in a high tide with the wind in a certain direction, people's homes are, you know, susceptible to flooding on a very regular basis. People have sandbags outside of their houses and flood defences in their gardens. And, you know, that is a result of coastal region and and a result of climate change, potentially.
Jo Kerr:
That was a community located in the space where flooding was, you know, potentially part of life. But we are seeing issues really be exacerbated. As you see, I think Easterhouse is another example of that. You know, you you can look at Easterhouse as a flood defence for the rest of Glasgow, which brings some interesting class dynamics, economic dynamics to play.
Jo Kerr:
But those those risks are increased in in climate change. And in terms of new issues, I don't think anyone expected that urban heating would be an issue in Glasgow necessarily. And part of the reason is because of decisions that were made in newer developments and buildings that were built, concerned about reserving heat and keeping people warm in the winter, and not really thinking about killing people down in the, in the summer.
Jo Kerr:
So, you know, air conditioning units that people can't afford to run and things like that. And then ambient temperatures inside of 27 degrees where, you know, if you have children or elderly people, there's, you know, percentage of that population who are disabled and things like that. It's it's really, really concerning and a microcosm maybe of what is being experienced down south.
Jo Kerr:
But that feels like a new issue in a way that some of these issues around flooding and and causes are exacerbating previous concerns.
Jen Roberts:
So, I mean, it's there is so much hope and positivity in what we can talk about, but that is also really desperately sad, some of this as well. And, and I suppose in just kind of reflecting on these different contexts and activities, what would you say, what what's been learned about what works when it comes to community climate adaptation or community climate resilience?
Jen Roberts:
I never sure whether to differentiate those terms in this conversation, actually. But what what would you say? Like have we have we learned really critical things about what works? And have there been shifts in thinking or practice on this topic?
Jo Kerr:
I think fundamentally is a shift away from the top down. And I know it's thinking about comments earlier, and there's a story that I come back to time and again of the big park in Easterhouse where, you know, said Easterhouse is kind of been considered somewhere that requires flood defences. And the park was part of that flood defence.
Jo Kerr:
And the park had, you know, going back quite a long way. Sports pictures. So space for kids to play, space for five a side, that kind of thing. And the decision was made to rewild and very much a top down decision to rewild the space, get rid of the old sports pitches and create a habitat for waterfalls and, you know, big nature lovers at virtually nothing.
Jo Kerr:
Nothing against the waterfalls. They do need their habitat, but there was no community consultation whatsoever. So the community were told you're having a new park and they thought, you know, swings and shoots, as you know, and they would say, and and there were no swings and there were no shoes. So it developed a kind of opposition between the residents and the community and this park that they didn't see as part of their community.
Jo Kerr:
And almost an opposition between the human residents and the waterfalls, which, you know, you could find a slightly funny, but it's another, you know, it's another kind of sad thing. And, and now through a lot of the relationships that we've been building through creative climate futures and the amazing work of Pavilion, which is the anchor organisation in Easterhouse, and there will be a new destination park in Easterhouse that has amazing stuff for kids and teenagers, and it's still got that waterfall habitat, so keeping the waterfalls happy, it great stuff for nature, kind of tidying up a little bit.
Jo Kerr:
Some of the less appealing parts of what happened with the, I guess bit unplanned rewilding that that happened, but it's still that flood defence. So I suppose that's that's a really key. Learning is like shifting from that top down. We know what's best to the bottom up, the core production. And it's been really interesting. And I said I've moved from more social justice anti-poverty space into climate in some rooms I am in, in climate rooms, core production is considered multiple local authorities kind of collaborating together.
Jo Kerr:
That's not what I would say. You know, co-production is nothing about us. Without us. It's community voice. It's understanding intersectionality, it's understanding equity issues. And it's really deeply listening to what people need and putting that front and centre and that that is deep work. And it takes time and it you know, it needs funding and resource. But I think we start to see the glimmers of of the results of that, which is amazing.
Jo Kerr:
And other I suppose, other things we're learning to recognise. So demystifying I think this is community work ahead of being sort of climate work. We don't need a lot of climate science to take people on this journey, to go on this journey with people, and we can bring adaptation expertise, but it's about those relationships and meeting people where they are and the creativity being embedded, the systemic nature.
Jo Kerr:
And you mentioned and the rule of nature in this, I think is really crucial. And, and that people need some results to build trust. Often these communities are exhausted by consultation. And so I've said it's, you know, it's about the bottom up, but that has to be meaningful and that has to result in something changing, even if it is a walking route or the plans for a new park.
Jo Kerr:
We're we're looking to leverage and money and people in around Pavilion can go into the centre and see the plans and know what stage they're at, and know how soon will be able to start building that park. And I think that is really meaningful, that really builds trust and then raising voices. You know, we're not a campaign, your organisation, but working in that partnership approach to tell those stories and raise voices where needed as well.
Matt Hannon:
I think I think driving a lot of that, Joe, and you've touched upon this is funding resource things also just that sort of political imperative where that's, you know, encoded and codified in legislation, regulation, policy. So as we're recording this, Andy Burnham, the current Prime Minister, I have to say that before, every every time I, I say the word Prime minister, the current prime minister is convening a Cobra meeting about the exceptional heat, fifth heatwave and the fact that most currently as we're recording this, most of England is in drought in this context.
Matt Hannon:
Do you think adaptation is beginning to receive the attention it deserves? It feels from the outside looking in like there's the penny is slowly dropping, that climate change is biting, but it doesn't feel, from my perspective, as if that is we. Now we've moved on to the step of we need to go full throttle on mitigation and adaptation.
Matt Hannon:
So what's your perspective?
Jo Kerr:
I felt a huge shift from when I joined in December 24th to now, and we have had a different environment in Scotland. I think we've been very fortunate, and the Sikh will often has commented that the Scottish National Adaptation Plan is stronger than the National Education Plan, and we recognise a better policy context. But still it's it's not been something that's been debated in Hollywood, and it's often been something that's been in the technical box and seeing that shift.
Jo Kerr:
You know, in December 25th, there was a leadership summit, which was very, very well attended across Scotland, and some people were able to come up. Emma Pinchbeck and from CC was up and Stephen Belcher from the Met Office. And there was a feeling that this is brilliant. You know, we've got the senior level people in the room having this conversation and really, really welcomed and a sense of that this doesn't happen in England.
Jo Kerr:
And, you know, realistically, for the UK to be climate ready, we need England to be climate ready. And so I think an acceleration of pace and a joining up and appreciation of these issues are not happening in isolation. And these issues are not about emergency response. Yes, we need emergency response from we of wildfires. Yes, we we need that when we have dry of course, because, you know, people's lives are at risk.
Jo Kerr:
But it's about what happens after the emergency response and how can we prevent further emergencies from happening. And so anything to we can do to have it up the agenda, I think it's also been really interesting. And Emma heard Boyd's comments of linking up the devolution agenda with adaptation and resilience and broader climate action, so we can see what the Tis can do, because in our experience in Scotland, the regional action is really, you know, that landscape scale, what connects us and what's going to be possible to shift.
Matt Hannon:
So if I may just for a moment, there was advocate. I think your point there about prevention, not cure is really important. If we adapt properly, we don't need to be talking so much about emergency response, you know, putting out the fires because we've already wetted the landscapes and built in the fire breaks and all of these, these elements.
Matt Hannon:
Okay. But you could make the counterargument that actually the truest form of prevention is mitigation, of course. And that starts and I'm not suggesting you saying otherwise whatsoever. But but if I may play devil's advocate is maybe too much attention being applied given over to adaptation in in terms of and I see this increasingly headlines and policy responses that, you know, adaptation instead of mitigation.
Matt Hannon:
Is that something that you're picking up in terms of that political I don't know what to say. The sort of Zeit Geist at the moment is actually, if we've got £1 billion, why not spend it on adaptation instead of mitigation? Is that something you're picking up at all or not?
Jo Kerr:
So we'll see what Andy Burnham says after the Cobra meeting. But and until like this week and the most kind of senior politician in the UK who had spoken clearly about adaptation in the media, was Richard Tice.
Matt Hannon:
Interesting.
Jo Kerr:
And that is a deliberate attempt to co-opt the agenda and and align it with the, you know, these kind of populist views in order to continue to burn fossil fuels, really, and duck the whole net net.
Matt Hannon:
Zero concern. Yeah.
Jo Kerr:
Question. And I think no one who believes in the OEM's of adaptation and resilience would ever want to do those, those actions in isolation from mitigation at all. And I think I agree with the decisions that were made in previous decades to focus on once entirely on mitigation. I think that was right and unfortunately, very deeply, unfortunately, it's not been effective.
Jo Kerr:
And if we don't dedicate some resource, it's going back to that as it bill Hader, the advisor to about who said, you know, we have the three choices and mitigation, adaptation or suffering. And my view is we should have as little suffering as possible. And I think, no, that requires adaptation action. And I guess I'm glad I'm not the treasurer who makes the decisions about how much of the pound goes towards mitigation, how much of it goes to adaptation.
Jo Kerr:
But I think we need to be investing across both. And, you know, the brilliant thing is that there's a huge set of actions in the middle of the Venn diagram. You know, plant a tree, create shades and sequester carbon. And, you know, not not everything is as neat as that. But there are loads of win wins. And when when we look for them.
Matt Hannon:
This I think I want to give away. I think that's a really interesting point that you've made about reform. Richard ties wanting to co-opt the adaptation space, because one concern I have is that humanity is ingenious, right? We do some really stupid stuff, but we we often try, even if we've dug ourselves into a hole, we'll often try and dig ourselves out of it.
Matt Hannon:
And your point about mitigate, adapt or suffer? I don't I can't imagine any citizen, any leader trying to represent those citizens where we settle for suffering. You know, it's just it's not it depends who's going to suffer. And that's a whole different question for a different podcast. Okay. But I think to avoid the suffering the adaptation is, is the piece and my concern.
Matt Hannon:
And I think that's you've put that really, really succinctly, is that there needs to be a very clear line in the sand around this adaptation agenda, what it's for, and that it is not instead of mitigation that it is, it is part and parcel of the same strategy. But I do worry that it could be co-opted for all the wrong reasons as a means of sort of skewering that mitigation agenda.
Jen Roberts:
I suppose maybe part of that as well, is around the kind of differentiating adaptation mitigation for so long and exactly as you just said, Joe, around kind of these activities that can have the joint, the kind of twin function of adaptation and mitigation, but the two haven't been necessarily spoken about and designed together in the in perhaps a different parts of the partnerships and communities that will be critical to enacting this change.
Jen Roberts:
And and so there is that I thought it was really interesting from the very beginning. You've been talking about the words that you use and the way that you frame this. And I suppose that framing of the challenge or differ according to which groups you're working with in a at virtue, I think you're working across all these different levels as well, which is what makes your perspective really, really fascinating and really interesting.
Jen Roberts:
And but my question, I'm going to take the conversation slightly different direction, only slightly. And it's really just to understand, you know, from that position of who's paying attention. Is there a growing attention to adaptation, how it's being played off potentially? Where would you say the biggest barriers are at the moment to adaptation action? And I suppose you can maybe frame that in terms of moving from that reaction to prevention.
Jen Roberts:
But, you know, where are those barriers and, well, what are they and where are they really.
Jo Kerr:
Good question. And I am I love to spend my time in the positive visioning space. But it's also really important to address, you know, what's what's not working. So you know, things we've we've already referenced in this conversation, I believe we have really strong policy. I think snap three Scottish National Adaptation Plan three is a really good kind of policy lever for adaptation action in Scotland.
Jo Kerr:
I think it's been said many times by people better various than me, that the National Adaptation Plan is not where it needs to be. So we'll be looking for a stronger policy position and potentially so that would be from 2028 potentially. We are living through this challenge now, and a stronger policy position will come out of the almost the aftermath of, of the summer that we've had, and we can move towards a just a more useful lever from the policy side in England.
Jo Kerr:
We I guess we would recognise funding the funding gap. How do you fund adaptation? A huge topic and maybe one for you to pick up on a separate you Could Do It Soon podcast and a couple of thoughts on that for me only briefly. The private sector talks a lot about what is investable, and that adaptation doesn't create enough returns.
Jo Kerr:
Adaptation action doesn't create enough returns. And the the basis of what we're looking to do is offset risk and avoid avoid these impacts. And the detrimental financial tool that they would take. And that isn't, you know, and some would say enough incentive for investment. So we end up with, you know, a burden on local government, a burden a national government step in.
Jo Kerr:
And we really, really need the private sector. So through Adaptation Scotland, we've been part of some really encouraging conversations that this needs to be broad. It needs to be deep. It needs, you know, so something needs to shift. And and I think the rule the private sector will play in the coming years will need to be profound. If we're talking about community level, if we're talking about what, what more can we do more quickly?
Jo Kerr:
I think there's a really exciting role for philanthropy to play and trust. And foundations have funded and major donors have funded adaptation action in the global South outside of the UK, and relevant funders are starting to say no. We also need to fund in the UK or funders that never funded climate adaptation before. UK funders are saying let's step in and and do that.
Jo Kerr:
And their organisations like Impatience Earth, who are playing a really cool role in brokering some of that. So it isn't it's not either or. It's, you know, all parts of the economy need to be turned to this, and I think the policy levers can unlock some of that. So we need to see that change. I think there's a huge barrier around knowledge, skills, capacity.
Jo Kerr:
We've talked about how that can be a real unlock when people start to understand, okay, what what is adaptation? What what is resilience, what are we aiming for and what else can we do? You know, if we want to create more justice, you know, more socially, just community. How can can adaptation and resilience action do that to or if our primary purpose is ensuring that the residents of our community have a great future resilience action, is that is the way to do that.
Jo Kerr:
And so talking about things like carbon literacy training is, you know, at this point, almost a household name. What's the colour for adaptation and resilience awareness. And you know, what awareness do the public need? Like, I don't I mean, it would be nice if my parents friends understood what I did, but, you know, it's I don't need adaptation to be a word on everybody's lips necessarily.
Jo Kerr:
We maybe need to do more around, you know, the resilience space, more around understanding action to protect us from climate impacts, whatever it is, and at least professionals working in different parts of the of society to understand. And I guess the wrapper for a lot of this stuff really is leadership. And I mentioned the the Adaptation Leadership Summit that we had in Scotland in December 25th, which was just a really exciting time to see what happens when people in really, really senior roles switch on.
Jo Kerr:
But we need that leadership at all levels and just recognising that communities do know what they need. And I suppose that thinking of barriers. You know, one example that I will bring out is there's a project that wasn't not a virtual project, but they used some of our tools and tools developed through Adaptation Scotland. And so it's a project run by a small organisation in Edinburgh called Edible Estates.
Jo Kerr:
And they worked with four council estates across Edinburgh to build community led climate adaptation plans, one for each estate, and could not get funding for the deliverables. And that we're not asking for, you know, don't think they were asking for tons of money and they definitely had really compelling case. But, you know, we need more organisations to step in.
Jo Kerr:
We need more unlocks. We need to get this action flowing. And I think there are far too many bottlenecks to creating the change that people know they need and would really help.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah, that particular example is quite painful to hear. Thinking about that, communities are over consulted and really tired and you know, and then all this really hard work has gone in partnership to create this, this plan. And then nothing amounts from it. You know, that's, that's just, that's that just hits lots of lots of issues of justice. Like lots of issues.
Jen Roberts:
Absolutely. Yeah.
Matt Hannon:
Well, we're fast running a time. Maybe just before I ask my my final question, I do wonder whether adaptation, not being such an international effort as mitigation might play in its favour, but time will tell in that it's it's more of a, you know, you can kind of formulate a national or regional local strategy and not necessarily be asking the question what what neighbours are doing.
Matt Hannon:
But having said that, that that doesn't that doesn't scan if you share borders or you know, you know, catch river catchment areas. So there's a whole lot and you and I will pick over the bones of this. There's some really interesting points of view. So I just for me looking over the next five years for you, what would success look like in terms of the climate adaptation agenda?
Matt Hannon:
I'm particularly pointing at kind of local community level, but it's all it's all connected. So what would success look like in terms of making progress in this space.
Jo Kerr:
In five years? I would love communities to. When we spoke to people in communities that they said they felt climate resilient in whatever language they would say, but we wouldn't be hearing from people about their babies experiencing heat stress. We wouldn't be feeling hearing from people about the lack of justice around green space planning and, you know, flood defences.
Jo Kerr:
And we wouldn't be hearing from people about their homes flooding on a on a high tide that there was support available and that, yes, people were able to take their own personal actions where that was appropriate. But there's also support available from the local authority through philanthropy, through the private sector to actually take quite affordable actions that would make people's lives better now and that, so they would know for the next five years, the next ten years, 20 years that they were living in a climate ready place and that they were living in a climate ready country because, you know, nobody really wants to feel like they're in a small island or a small pocket
Jo Kerr:
of exceptionalism that actually feels really, really fragile. It's about that interconnection and the communities ladder up to the region's ladder, up to a country where, yeah, we might not be able to stop there being 40 degree temperatures in summer in the southeast, but there's support in place for people going through that. And the element of suffering is is taken away.
Matt Hannon:
Brilliant. Thank you. I think with that positive vision, I think that is exactly where we should end. So, Joe, thank you for your time. That's been an absolutely fascinating listen, a much, much of a chance to mull over. Thank you.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah. Thank you so much.
Jo Kerr:
Thank you. Both of you.
Jen Roberts:
That's all for this episode of local Zero. Thank you so much for spending time with us today. If you found our discussion interesting, then please help us spread the word by sharing the episode with your networks. A quick share can help these conversations reach new listeners.
Matt Hannon:
And we'd love to hear what you thought. Whether you're listening on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, YouTube, or another platform, please leave a comment, rating or review and always helps us improve the podcast and makes it easier for others to discover it too.
Jen Roberts:
Yeah, and as always, we're keen to hear your ideas for future episodes. If there's a topic, project, or a person you think we should be featuring, maybe even its yourself. In response to some of these questions we've raised over recent episodes, please do get in touch with local zero pod at gmail.com or find us on LinkedIn by searching for Local Zero podcast.
Matt Hannon:
But until next time, thanks for listening and goodbye.
Jen Roberts:
See you next time.