33: 2022: the year of local climate action?
As concern grows over spiking energy bills and its impact on poorer households, what challenges lie ahead for net-zero and a just transition? As ever, we explore how local action can have a positive impact. Matt and Becky are joined by Dr Jen Roberts, Chancellor's Fellow in Energy at the University of Strathclyde, and Dr Jeff Hardy, Senior Research Fellow in Climate Change and the Environment at Imperial College London's Grantham Institute.
Episode Transcript:
Rebecca: Hello and welcome to Local Zero. You’re listening to Becky and Matt and we are here to kick off your 2022 with a huge local energy bang.
[Music flourish]
Matt: Welcome and a belated Happy New Year to you all. If it’s anything like 2021, we’re going to be very busy indeed.
Rebecca: I feel like we spent a good chunk of the end of last year reflecting back and it was really useful. I think we all needed that reflection, that pause and subsequently, the time off over Christmas and New Year but we’re back and we’re excited to look forward. Except Matt, I feel like we need to share with our lovely listeners what happened to you last night and why you’re a little bit hazy today [laughter].
Matt: Yeah, I had a bit of a Mr Bump moment. I play football, for better or for worse, and I had a bit of a collision last night. I think I’m okay [laughter]. I’ve been checked out and I’m good to go but if I sort of just tail off and start talking gibberish, then apologies.
Rebecca: As people can probably tell, we’re severely missing Fraser because if Fraser was here, he would certainly be joining me in ripping it out of you, Matt [laughter].
Matt: He’d be telling me not be so nesh and just to strengthen up a little bit but he’s not here, so I can wallow in my own pity [laughter].
[Music flourish]
But today, we are joined by some guests. We’ve got some friends of the pod. We’ve had Dr Jeff Hardy on before and he’s back today. We’ve also had Dr Jen Roberts, also from the University of Strathclyde, who has been on before. I’m delighted they’re both coming back to talk a bit more about what lies ahead. We’ll introduce all of our guests properly but before we do, we’ve got a bit of reflecting to do on a very busy news fortnight since people basically started to pile back from their mince pies and sherry [laughter]. So it’s time for the good, the bad and the weird.
[Music flourish]
So, Becky, what’s on your news roster?
Rebecca: Well, I feel like we might want to save the good for the end. That’s what I always do. I don’t know if you’re one of these people, Matt, but I do this with everything. If I get a plate of food, I always like to start with the stuff I like the least and save the stuff I like the most for the end. So I sort of feel like I’d like to save the good news for the end here.
Matt: Like dessert?
Rebecca: Like dessert, yeah [laughter].
Matt: Yeah, I understand.
Rebecca: So for me, one of the things that I read, and I’m sure this will come as no surprise to many people around the higher energy bills that we are expecting to see on the horizon, was that the Chief Executive of Centrica, Chris O’Shea, has said recently in a news article that he doesn’t expect these prices to come down any time soon. He doesn’t expect gas prices to come down any time soon. Of course, that is one of the key reasons that we are seeing a huge price spike in the energy bills that we’ve got to pay. Obviously, higher prices for energy are not a great thing. I mean you could look at the flip side and say that higher prices for gas could be forcing our hand a bit and maybe creating more of a move to renewables. So there could be some good in there but actually, when I look at this and think about the hundreds of thousands of people that are struggling to pay their bills already and that are very, very cold in their homes or even making the decision about whether to have warm food or good nutrition, it’s not a good news story really.
Matt: No, and I’m seeing other stories related to this. Most of the news is focusing on April when the price cap will change. That will be announced earlier than April but actually, they’re saying not to expect that to be the rise. The rise may come in the October price cap. This is another bad news story related to this which is that Citizens Advice is pointing to how these consecutive rises from April and also October are going to really hit the poorest members of our society. They were highlighting, in this instance, folk who are on benefits like Universal Credit and saying that these energy prices would leave single adults on benefits spending a third of their standard allowance, the basic rate of Universal Credit, on energy bills. That would be in April and that would go up to almost 40% in October. It’s hoovering up huge amounts of support which people require to live a reasonable quality of life.
Rebecca: Absolutely and I guess going hand-in-hand with Covid, the restrictions and the fact that more people are spending more time at home, it’s just very, very challenging times.
Matt: It is. I’ve got a weird one to come to.
Rebecca: Oh good! [Laughter]
Matt: I do have another bad one but maybe we link into the weird one here because some of you may have heard that OVO were in the news this week. When this goes out, this may be towards the back end of the news roster. OVO Energy, who bought SSE’s retail arm two or three years ago, were in the news for all the wrong reasons this week. An email was leaked that identified some handy tips to reduce our energy bills. Now let me just run through a few of these for you.
Rebecca: Please do, please do.
Matt: You have to remember that the price cap is going to see huge increases in energy bills, so people are really grasping for anything they can do. Now some of these were peculiar. The ten simple and cost-effective ways to keep warm this winter... one of the best was (and, Becky, you’ll like this) a cuddle with your pet or loved ones to help stay cosy [laughter]. You’ve got a dog, so you’re okay. I didn’t know this but the other one was eating ginger and not chilli because chilli makes you sweat and that’s bad because you’ll eventually get cold. So a big bowlful of ginger will sort you out. There were a couple of others I loved here. If the kids are getting cold, they can do a hula hoop contest or a few star jumps [laughter]. Also don’t drink alcohol as that can make you colder. I’ll just finish on this. In this FT article, a government figure responded and was able to reflect on these and he said, ‘The advice to eat porridge and eschew alcohol was like some Dickensian nightmare,’ [laughter] which I thought was quite good. Anyway, this is a very serious issue and so there was a little bit of lightheartedness but really, an energy supplier should not be suggesting this. Maybe a bit of loft lagging and underfloor insulation wouldn’t go amiss, right?
Rebecca: I do love cuddling with my pet. Hugs are also really, really good for your mental health but I’ve never heard of them helping you keep warm. My kids love jumping, bouncing around, hula hoops and trampolining. I’m sure they’ll be doing that anyway but what a bizarre...
Matt: You’ll be fine this winter, Becky.
Rebecca: [Laughter] I’ll be fine. Get the kids on the trampoline and the dog giving me a cuddle. We’re sorted. No problems.
Matt: Before we move on to the good news, I’ll very quickly just touch upon another bad news item that happened. Well, it was in relation to today as we’re recording. Obviously, this will go out in a few days’ time. Both you and I, Becky, have lived in London for a little while and we know the air quality there can be very poor.
Rebecca: Oh gosh, yeah.
Matt: I remember cycling in on some days and having to wear an air pollution filter mask just to keep the very worst of it out. It was always typically February, March and April when it was really bad but today, there is a warning out where they predict that pollution levels will hit Band 10.
Rebecca: Wow!
Matt: So unlike Spinal Tap, things don’t get worse than ten. Ten is the maximum in terms of air quality.
Rebecca: Shocking.
Matt: Sorry, the minimum. It’s the worse. This is the first time they’ll have hit this level since March 2018 and they’re essentially issuing a Stay-at-Home order.
Rebecca: Why? What’s causing it?
Matt: Well, you pick. There’s a whole load of issues, depending on whether the wind is blowing in from the Continent. You’ve obviously got perennial issues around car pollution. It’s all the old culprits. Yeah, they’re basically saying not to exercise today.
Rebecca: Wow! Absolutely shocking.
Matt: There you go. Obviously, today is Friday 14th and hopefully, once the wind changes direction, things will change but this is really, really shocking stuff and a very good reason why it’s not all about carbon emissions.
Rebecca: Absolutely. I mean those air pollutants are critical to think about and, in fact, in many cities around the world, Glasgow included, it’s taken Covid and lockdown to get our levels down to below what the targets are. There are many places where things aren’t going well. It’s really a shame to hear that about London, especially because of all the measures that have been introduced in the past. As you mentioned, it hasn’t been this bad since 2018 and all the measures that they’re hoping to introduce, so it’s really, really sad to see this. I brought my kids up in London. I lived in London until my kids were about two years old and actually, that buggy height is a really, really bad height for the pollution.
Matt: And right by the road as well. No, it’s nasty and things need to change. So on that note, let’s be a bit more positive and over to you for a good news story.
Rebecca: Yeah, absolutely. We were just talking about pollutants. I feel like this is a spot-on lead into what I wanted to talk about which is that according to a new report released by Zap Map, they found that less than 1% of people who now drive electric vehicles would want to go back to petrol or diesel cars. So recognising there are limits to who can drive an electric vehicle and that there are still challenges around the pricing but actually, people that drove EVs and their plug-in hybrids were much more satisfied with their cars than people that drove combustion vehicles. Even things like range anxiety that was thought to be a really big issue in preventing people from switching across is actually not such a big deal as we really thought. That’s quite exciting.
Matt: That’s very good news. As Twitter will no doubt be bored by now and the blow-by-blow account of my own folks who have gone down the EV route but before me, I should add, not for want of trying... I just need to save the pennies [laugher]. Yeah, they’ve had a number of issues but the learning curve is steep and I think, ultimately, they’re keeping up on it. I’m interested to see there that many people aren’t going to go backwards. I think on this transport theme, my good news article actually relates to something that came out this week which relates to Scottish Government’s own consultation on delivering its target to reduce car kilometres (not miles) by 20% by 2030. This is with a view to meeting net zero by 2045. This is a consultation that’s come out and the government has said, ‘This is how we’re going to do it.’ Obviously, one can critique the things that are in there but as a good news story, this basically outlines what they’re going to do over the next two or three years immediately. For me, it starts to shift the debate from what the future look like, this far off distance net zero land in 2045, and it says, ‘Right, how do we get there? What are the next two or three steps we need to take?’ What’s really interesting in this, Becky, are the number of policies which aren’t really about transport.
Rebecca: Interesting.
Matt: They have an impact on driving but they are much broader than that. It might be things like focusing on 4 or 5G connectivity and extra fast broadband. It might be about where we plan and invest our public spaces like schools, for example, and the school run or where we maybe locate hospitals, for example. These kinds of decisions are key and are filtering in. There’s some really interesting stuff in there and a big pat on the back to Scottish Government in making that step forward I think.
Rebecca: Yeah, I mean that kind of says it all, doesn’t it, Matt? Really, getting in the car is not something that most of us do because we love getting behind the steering wheel and sitting in the roadworks for hours on end. Actually, we do it because we have to. For me, this is really exciting because it really starts to show some joined-up thinking across Scottish Government because within Scottish Government, it will be different departments that focus on these different areas. The fact that it’s all being brought together is very, very positive and exciting.
Matt: There is a strong focus throughout this on just transition and social justice principles. So how do you make these alternatives to driving accessible to everybody and crucially, ensure that everybody benefits? Many of the impacts are what we call socialised or externalised and so if the quality of the air is better, as we’ve just talked about in London, it’s better for everybody... assuming we’re talking about the same location. I should have probably begun with this but the scale of the car-driving problem in Scotland is huge. I’m going to ask you a question – a bit of a quiz and an ode to Fraser’s absence here [laughter]. According to research undertaken on behalf of Scottish Government, in 2019, what percentage of car journeys were under one kilometre? So that’s somebody hopping in the car to go less than a kilometre.
Rebecca: It’s got to be up there. I reckon it’s pretty high. Loads of people get in their cars just to go to the local shop. Maybe it’s around 40%.
Matt: It’s lower but not much. It’s just shy of 20%; so one in five journeys. Under five kilometres is over half. Five kilometres is about three miles in old money. Anyway, that’s the scale of the problem; hence, why they needed to reduce it. It’s good to see action being taken. We’ve linked this to many other problems we’ve covered and it’s these kinds of developments that we’re seeing in the pipeline that we’re wanting to discuss with our guests a bit more today which is what does 2022 hold? It’s post-COP and we’ve got COP27 down the line. The COPs don’t stop [laughter]. It’s going to be another busy year and so we ought to roll out the red carpet for our guests.
Rebecca: Absolutely. Let’s bring them in.
[Music flourish]
Jeff: My name is Dr Jeff Hardy. I’m a senior research fellow at the Grantham Institute at Imperial College London and I lead our Energy Revolution Research Consortium work on future energy governance for smart local energy systems.
Jen: My name is Jen Roberts and I’m a researcher at the University of Strathclyde in Glasgow. My research is all about social technical risks around the transition to a more sustainable future for all.
[Music flourish]
Rebecca: Great. Well, welcome Jeff and welcome Jen. It’s so lovely to have you both back on Local Zero. Obviously, you’re friends of the show. We’ve chatted to you before. We’ve got a stellar conversation on the cards today, so I’m very excited to dive into that but I feel like, first of all, I should just ask you how your Christmas was. Did you have a good break?
Jeff: Yeah [laughter].
Matt: You don’t sound convinced [laughter].
Jeff: I’ve been back at work for a week and a half. It’s all gone.
Matt: A distant memory. Jen, can you improve upon Jeff’s summary of Christmas? [Laughter]
Jen: I’ll try and improve on Jeff’s Christmas. Yeah, I had a very welcome and very much needed break. I was absolutely off my screen. I didn’t even watch telly. I was off-screen and I think most importantly, I actually got to see – not that many members of the family but I got to see some family and I was very aware of how lucky that was really. Coronavirus was not a visitor in our little household. Hurray! [Laughter]
Matt: Only Father Christmas. Good.
Rebecca: Coronavirus, you are not invited to the Christmas party [laughter]. I’m like you, Jen. I took a really nice, long break. I mean I was totally sick as well [laughter]. I feel like, in some ways, that actually got me away from my computer even more because my brain was just not up to anything. It’s also really helped me get some clarity. It’s allowed me to think again and the space to think. I’m hoping that for both of you it’s been the same because I’d really like for our conversation to reflect on where we need to go. We’re just kicking off 2022 and we’ve got eight years left in this decade of climate action. So we’re very much moving from thinking to doing. We have got to act this year if we’re going to get anywhere near hitting our targets. I guess in the spirit of that, what I’d really like for us to talk about is what do we need to be doing? What do we actually have to get on the ground this year? Jeff, in our intro, Matt and I reflected on some of the real challenges that lie ahead, particularly for people that might be on benefits, for people that might have slightly lower incomes or live in older homes with the gas prices and the reflection in our energy bills. This is a huge issue for thousands of people. From your perspective, because you work very closely thinking about the policy, the markets and the regulation side of the things, where do we need to be putting our attention and our efforts in the coming year to address some of these challenges?
Jeff: Yeah, that’s a really good framing, Becky, and it is going to be a really tough year I think for all sorts of reasons. Clearly, we’re in the middle of an energy crisis. Some will have seen, on various news outlets, chief executives of major energy firms saying that this could last for the next two years. Gas prices are going to stay high. It means we’re going to have all sorts of things coming along. In February, we’re going to hear the announcement of what the next price cap is going to be. That’s the cap on standard variable tariffs and other forms of tariffs in the energy supply market. That looks like it’s going up to about £2,000...
Rebecca: Wow!
Jeff: ...on average. That’s a 50% increase on what we had in October. You’ve also got other things that are in and amongst that. You’ve got the cost of living crisis generally with inflation on the rise. We’ve also got some impacts of Brexit still in there and we’re all a little poorer because of a loss of trade with Europe and so it’s going to be a right old squeeze. The other thing that’s going on is that everyone is coming out with, ‘What shall we do about it in the short term?’ There are a lot of proposals around. I was trying to collect a few of them earlier. We’ve got things like reduce or remove VAT from bills. We’ve got things like spread the costs of the supplier failures over future years, so put them on future consumers essentially. We’ve then got things like the green levies that are on the bill currently. They’re about £175 a year on the bill... take those into general taxation which is less regressive generally speaking. There are lots of things going on. None of those add up to the cost of increase of the bill. You’re looking at probably £400-500 maximum out of those against an increase of about... maybe in good weather, it might take off all of those issues. There’s not a lot of wriggle room at the moment. The thing that’s in my mind, and I’ve yet to see any political appetite behind, is how do you protect consumers against bills now and in the future? The best way to do it is energy efficiency. If you do not spend money on your energy because you do not need to use it, you are going to save money. It’s still an absolute silence.
Matt: I can see Jen nodding along. I think you’ve got an ally in this.
Jen: Oh, I find it so frustrating. I wanted to ask you, Jeff, about the things that you were reviewing because I have not done that reviewing. Have any of those things then not suggested measures that would reduce demand?
Jeff: Well, I don’t see it in any of the political debate at the moment. I might be being unfair but certainly in the mainstream debate, it’s all about really short-term measures that immediately take something off bills. It’s not about saying, ‘Let’s use this opportunity to really help consumers now and in the future.’ That’s what you’re talking about because if you increase energy efficiency, you’re basically sorting a problem in the long term and not knee jerk.
Matt: Perversely, there have been suggestions about removing green levies that fund efficiency schemes like the Energy Company Obligation, so that would remove some money off the bill immediately but then it would stop all those homes, particularly fuel-poor homes (because ECO is very much geared towards that), significantly reducing their energy bills indefinitely; not reducing the cost per unit of energy but the total consumption of energy for that household.
Rebecca: It hits lots of birds with one stone because not only will it help with some of these kinds of immediate bill impacts as you don’t need to use as much if you’ve but a more efficient home but in the long run, it will help us as we start to shift towards electric forms of heating and electrified forms of transport. It will really have multiple impacts. I think that one of the reasons that we don’t see it as much is because it’s such a hard nut to crack because it’s pushed towards each individual household to understand what they need to do in their home and to make the decision to spend the money. Jen, you’ve just been through a lot of this for where you live, right? It wasn’t easy for you. You work in this sector and you are really, really smart and you have a brain suited towards an engineering aspect [laughter] and you didn’t find it easy, did you?
Jen: No, and I guess the experience of this has been very eye-opening around simply the slowness and the frustration. In the backdrop, we did have Glasgow in lockdown for a lot of it and so a lot of work couldn’t go on but we were looking, for example, to simply - I say simply but it was very expensive – replace our windows so that we didn’t have an utterly freezing flat. We’ve put insulation into our flat which didn’t have insulation as a top-floor flat [laughter]. The insulation we could get on and do after doing a lot of research and a lot of liaising. We’ve been very lucky to have a community that we can engage with and I can talk more about that community later and the role of that but the time delay between wanting to do something, and we were very lucky to have that finance in place, to actually then getting things installed is just huge. It’s very complicated, it’s very frustrating and it’s not easy. In the backdrop of that, if we go back to what Jeff first started talking about, the messaging is just all wrong right now.
Matt: I’d agree, Jen. The messaging is wrong and where is the efficiency in that? I’ll maybe put the question to you both here and it’s something that Jen said earlier. The focus on immediate cost reductions on bills. As you’ve just said, Jen, actually installing the measures takes time and setting up the schemes to deliver those measures takes time. We saw the Green Homes Grants last year was rushed through and it went very badly. There is some insidious element here about the electoral cycle. If government went hammer and tongue at energy efficiency now, the benefits probably wouldn’t be felt until after the next General Election or in the lead-up to it. That’s my concern and I wanted to take your views on that.
Jeff: I think it’s a perfectly reasonable concern. It’s always been a broad sense that politically, it’s much more impactful to be able to cut a ribbon in front of a large, new power station or a large, new development than it is in front of the absence of energy use which is what we’re really talking about here... so in front of insulated properties or whatever it might be. It’s a massive issue. The experience that Jen was just talking about around dealing with all the complexity is what everyone is going to face as they go through this transition because it’s not just about having a more energy efficient home but that is an absolute first step and the most important thing. There’s then lots of other stuff that’s going to happen like thinking about having a zero-carbon heating system and wider zero-carbon lifestyle stuff. Now we’ve just finished a decarbonisation of heat report which is an Energy Revolution Research Consortium report. I won’t go into it in too much detail but one of the most important conclusions in that is that local government and local authorities have got much of the trust, they have much of the ability and they have the remit to deliver not just on, say, a local energy efficiency programme but also an engagement programme on zero-carbon heating and lots of other stuff. There are lots of reasons why they can’t as they don’t have the resources, they don’t have all of the capabilities or they don’t have the mandate, in some instances, but they’re a natural coordinating body in the middle of all of that that could really be driving this forward because this zero-carbon transition is going to mean different things in different places as well.
Matt: Jeff, you’re hitting a number of buzzwords which I can see relate directly to Jen’s work here in terms of trust, engagement and participation. Jen, if I were to say what’s the year of 2022 going to be and if there was an energy calendar, akin to the Chinese one, it would be the year of participation and engagement. It has to be.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely and it’s also the year of voting. I did make some notes [laughter] before joining this conversation to keep my mind a bit organised about top messages and one of the top messages is voting and voice. We’ve got participation but actually, in Scotland, we’re looking to have the local elections forthcoming. As Jeff said, we know how local authorities are absolutely critical to enabling some of these key changes that absolutely must be implemented for reasons of climate and social justice. The discussion we were having about warmer homes is also about healthier people living in those homes as well. There is this concatenation of outcomes around some of these changes that we need to implement. What local authorities can do or what they can focus on is influenced by national government priorities and legislation but also very much by the role of the elected councillors. The elected councillors can be enablers or they can be disablers. I think that in the year of 2022, I very much hope we’re going to see a year of participation. We absolutely have to in order to keep this momentum as well. We’re talking politics here and local politics is sometimes dismissed in the framing of national politics. There’s less coverage about it and people talk about it less but it’s utterly critical. Take the example, I suppose, of Councillor Anna Richardson in Glasgow. One of her top priorities was to see a network of cycle routes in Glasgow with a particular network that would learn from cities in Europe where not only are there more cyclists but there is gender parity or more women cyclists. That was one of her top priorities. Several years later, and I’m not sure how many years later, Anna might be feeling very weary of this now but Glasgow City Council will be publishing its Active Travel Strategy showing how that cycle network and other forms of transport will be delivered. There, you’ve got a nice example of the influence that local councillors can have because of the power of the local authority in terms of instigating change as well.
Rebecca: I heartily agree with you and it frustrates me as well that this has become a political issue...
Jen: I know [laughter].
Rebecca: ...because the changes that we need, in my mind, should not be a political issue. I understand the need for local action and there are levels of trust at the local level. There’s also this idea that your local authority and these local groups know the community better. They know where things need to be targeted and so on. At the same time, I’m infuriated that it has the potential of turning into a political issue because in my opinion, it should just transcend all of that. We need to think about that but there are a lot of people working in this space and there are a lot of very active community organisations, energy cooperatives, transport cooperatives and so on that are working to deliver this. To a large extent, they are separate from the local authorities and perhaps we could even say don’t working closely enough with them. Do you see there needs to be more of a drive for this? How does that need to change moving forward into 2022 as well?
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. There’s a really important role at a very small level actually. You touched on this in your episode where you were reflecting on 2021 about how your families are encouraging change, encouraging each other and sharing information. That shows a role at a very local and a very personal level. At these slightly broader local level initiatives, whether it’s community interest groups, there is an important role that these groups play in terms of political pressure and so I will bring it back to politics. I started out by studying rocks [laughter] as a geologist and somehow, now I keep talking about politics and I don’t mean to [laughter]. Yeah, these local groups create so much personal wellbeing benefit in terms of place-making as well as knowledge sharing. We know that, as human beings, you can’t condense us down into models that operationalise everything. We are influenced by the partnerships and the networks that we have. I suppose we can use an example of the Loco Home Retrofit, which is a community interest group set up last year. That’s bringing people together who are looking to retrofit their homes and other measures in their homes. They’re trying to make their homes warmer and more efficient and they’re sharing their experiences of context. The people that put in my windows, thankfully, were great. My brother had windows put into his property at the same time and every single window is leaking and so I am very grateful that we were able to have really excellent people who were also the cheapest which helped [laughter]. They did such a great job and we are properly going around and testing temperatures and all that stuff. That means I’m sharing their information with the people within this cooperative. Stuff like that just helps change and I see a huge role for that going forward in 2022.
Matt: So are we now moving into a new phase of net zero and a just transition where in 2021, there was a big focus on top-down announcements from central government, particularly Westminster. Obviously, devolved administrations had their own announcements too. We had COP26 and we had the great and good of the world coming to Glasgow and figuring out what on earth we need to do to keep 1.50C alive. In my view, in 2022 and over the next coming years, we’re moving now from targets to implementation and that naturally moves things to a much more local and individual community level. We’re starting to bring in actors who have maybe been on the subs bench until now (another terrible footballing analogy). They’re now drafted in and they’ve got to do a job. With regard to local authorities and community groups, Jen, you’re talking about these almost as grassroots, neighbourhood, informal institutions and connections. Are they now in the spotlight?
Jeff: I’m liking your tribute to Professor Van-Tam as well in your analogy to that. I think this is very important. I think that’s true and let me just step up one level. I was reflecting on it when I was thinking about today’s episode. We’ve been in a phase, particularly in the run-up to COP, where there was a splurge of policy announcements, initiatives and all of that kind of thing but when people stood back from that, it didn’t amount to a plan or a strategy for delivery. What you were saying, Matt, is spot on. Now that we’ve got a whole bunch of ideas, both in the UK and across the devolved administrations, about how we’re going to get from here to zero carbon, it’s got to get into delivery. That’s what you need and I think the only agents that can deliver some of those, and probably the majority of those initiatives, are local actors including local government. It’s not possible to do a top-down across the whole of the UK because everywhere in the UK is different. You’ve got different socioeconomic circumstances. You’ve got different energy systems within different places. You’ve got different building stock or whatever it might be... different people as well [laughter]. It’s not some homogeneous mix. It’s a heterogeneous country. We’ve got to get into that phase. Just thinking about what Jen was saying about local action, my street and surrounding streets have just finished a long-run battle to keep our Low-
Traffic Neighbourhood. It’s been an absolutely vicious campaign. It’s been horrible, frankly, with arguments to have safe walking for kids and better air quality has been met with vociferous arguments against freedom and all sorts of stuff. I’m really glad to see that Southwark Council – big kudos to them in London – have basically backed it up with data and have gone against what actually was a public vote against the LTNs. It’s a real funny world at the moment.
Matt: That’s fabulous news, Jeff. Jen, I’m just thinking here... we’re talking about this ecosystem of actors and individuals that we need to bring in now and they need to be part of that discussion. I know you very much major on public engagement and you’ve been involved with citizens’ assemblies. I just wanted to get your take on how we do that.
Jen: I like the framing that we’re moving now into delivery and implementation. Obviously, that has local impacts on how people live their lives. I’d also say that some of that planning has been done in terms of having citizens’ assemblies and citizens’ juries, for example. We’ve had so many over the last 18 months. It’s unbelievable. That’s helped to set the priorities for that particular area. There have been citizens’ assemblies and climate assemblies held in a number of cities in the UK. The cities are aware that a lot of action needs to be taken. We’ve got that citizen influence in that kind of organised way which, again, is political and the invitation to then respond to those requirements, requests or priorities that citizens have made. Now we’ve got a chance to start implementation of some of these changes on the ground. How are we going to include people in those decisions? How are we going to make sure that we’re not leaving people behind? How are we ensuring that this is an inclusive transition? It’s just very difficult. The people who live in the area are the ones that understand their area, understand what’s needed and understand who, what and where. This is the thing. We need these new methods of decision-making. I know that on the pod, you had explored actually placing more power in the hands of citizens, whether that’s around spend or decision-making but I think that there’s a really important role there.
Matt: Is that things like citizen budgeting where you’re asking citizens, ‘If we had £100, how much would you put on this?’
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. It’s prioritising spending. It’s actually putting the power into their hands because some of the issues around these participatory processes are around what happens next. I would say it’s almost more damaging to include people in a conversation and then not implement what they’ve said that their priorities are because you’re silencing people at that point. You’ve invited them in to join a conversation and then you’re not actually acting upon that. So I’d say 2022 is also the year to be working out how to act on these priorities that have been set. If I may also add in here that this is far beyond climate action. This is about so much more than carbon. If we boil this all down to carbon, we’re missing a massive trick and we’re not going to really think about carbon and making up a whole-systems framework as well, so we’re not going to actually deliver a sustainable future. I think that we’re seeing a shift in framing to asking, ‘What are the futures that people want?’ This isn’t about these very triggering and very sensitive topics. It’s actually about the environment and the future that people want. They want to get around easily. They want a quiet, safe neighbourhood.
Matt: It’s not cars; it’s mobility... that kind of discussion.
Jen: Yeah, absolutely. So I think that we’ve seen that shift towards talking about these... I want to say co-benefits but that’s a very jargony phrase. It’s just what do people want for the future where they live and where they work?
Rebecca: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense.
Matt: I can see Becky is bursting! You said ‘co-benefits’, Jen. That’s a triggering term [laughter].
Rebecca: I want to touch on something. I might just divert us for a minute but I’m reading this book which has absolutely nothing to do with climate change or energy [laughter]. I like to ground myself in something completely different in my reading but it is looking at performance and how to achieve things that are really hard. I think this, for me, is where it ties back to what we need to do. I don’t think we should be fooling ourselves. The changes that are coming are difficult. If they were easy, we would have delivered them already. They’re going to require action across all of society. We need to see greater levels of motivation. Where this book ties in is it brings me back to motivation theory which I actually studied in my PhD. I feel like it’s time-travelling me in some ways but it’s reminded me that to be able to have this motivation for the things that we want... so let’s take these priorities. You’re right, Jen, and it might not just be about carbon. It’s about bringing that together and looking at these better lifestyles for everyone but then how do we deliver that? How do we create that motivation to reach that? The book really talks about three pillars to do that and one is around control and empowerment. You are more likely to have those stronger and more intrinsic levels of motivation coming from within if you feel like you have some control over that future and some sort of empowerment. The second pillar is about competency. Do you have the skills to deliver that? How can we make sure that we have the skills, not necessarily every single individual but across our communities? The third piece - I don’t know why I always forget this third pillar and, in some ways, I think it’s almost the most important one – is around a sense of belonging. You are doing this as part of something that is bigger than yourself and as part of that community. For me, looking back at COP26, I feel like although we might have been talking about these high-level dialogues and national priorities, it did in some ways galvanise that action. It sort of created that shared sense of purpose and belonging; that we were coming together to work on something, whatever that kind of coming together was. I feel that’s really inspired me at the end of last year. Moving forward to 2022, if I think about those three pillars of the control, the empowerment and the belonging, to me this comes right back to how are we going to enable our local communities to do that when right now, local authorities and local community groups are running on fumes? We need stronger resources. Look at the Green Homes Grant that we just talked about. One of the failures of that was not necessarily for want of finance but it was in that delivery. It was the lack of upskilling in the areas where it needed to happen. It was looking at where there was the empowerment in terms of then getting it out into people’s homes. I’m just wondering how these things sit with you guys. Particularly, Jen, I know you’ve done a lot of work with local communities and I feel like things like citizens’ assemblies that you talked about are really, really important to make sure we understand what people want but then when we translate that to look to deliver it, we need to do a lot more. We need to really start to focus on how we’re going to drive that action.
Jen: Yeah, we do and I wish I had a really comprehensive way of setting out exactly how we’re going to do that [laughter] but I don’t. We’re in this climate as well of totally squeezed budgets. I can’t remember the phrase that Jeff used earlier but basically, the funding is very slim and so it’s really very difficult to think about how we resource that. I don’t think we should be relying on people giving up their free time. That’s not respectful. That’s not good work. That’s not a fair and inclusive model for the future. We know lessons from community energy projects that you’re more likely to have success, you’re empowering people and there are a load of co-benefits that are associated with things beyond energy. It’s kind of beyond community as well in terms of enabling change. We know also that the agency and action that started around a community energy project might then be translated to other aspects within community and within society. Enabling and resourcing these community organisations is absolutely critical but I don’t know how it’s done.
Rebecca: Jeff, what do we need from government? Does government need to do something here to enable that to happen?
Jeff: I think so. I was just thinking about your three pillars there, Becky. In the heat report, which should be out in the first or second week of February, depending on which date we settle on for the launch, those three things really strongly accord with some of the recommendations we make which are all really about devolving responsibility and resources to local government and local actors to deliver on zero-carbon heating and wider zero-carbon energy policy. On the competency, local authorities and other actors are going to need resources which we know have been pretty hollowed out over the past decade actually and the capabilities like people, skills and all that kind of stuff. They’re going to want to have some control but they’re also going to want to empower those around them to make the right decisions. These have to be collective and place-based for them to say, ‘This is the right zero-carbon pathway for us and here are the things that we value in that.’ We do talk about co-benefits as academics but really, what do we want out of it? It’s a social contract more than anything else. In return for doing this, we will get that. There’s then belonging but this is all about place-based stuff. It’s the homes we live in. It’s the mobility systems we have around us. It’s where we work and all of that kind of stuff and so it has to be tied up with that sense of belonging as well. Stay tuned for the heat report. I haven’t got any answers at all for you whatsoever but we’re going to do a series of workshops going into the spring this year. Those workshops are all about what decisions do we need to take to allow these smart and local energy systems to deliver on their benefits or deliver their thing ultimately? This is going to be presenting to stakeholders, in workshops called decision theatres, information from EnergyREV and a synthesis of the evidence we have. We’ll then ask, ‘What are the most important decisions you think are required to do this?’ They’re brilliant these decision theatres because you basically lock people in a room until they consent to a decision.
Matt: Yeah, until they give you some answers. Obviously, it’s voluntary. We’ll have to get you back on to speak to those. We are fast running out of time and so I just wanted to end on this question to you both. My big, big concern for 2022 is that the cost of living crisis could push green and net zero – you fill that sustainability with whichever buzzword you fancy – off the agenda because we’re starting to see that short-term cost reductions are going to be what government is under pressure to deliver. How do we avoid that happening? I think we’ve touched upon a lot of the issues and about asking communities what they want. Climate action remains extremely popular but how do we avoid that happening? How do we avoid 2022 being the year that green fell off the map?
Jen: Keep this momentum. We know that the climate crisis and climate action is an incredibly high priority for the public. It was top of the polls at the end of last year. It’s a very high priority. Let’s not let government distract us from that. We’re not seeing strong leadership in this energy crisis which is potentially distracting but we need to keep it on the agenda and keep this motivation. I think, if anything, the year of 2022 needs to be the year of motivation and of keeping climate on the agenda. We know that, for the public, it’s a high priority.
Matt: Brilliant. Thank you, Jen. Jeff, I think you may have the last word, so no pressure.
Jeff: Oh my goodness! [Laughter] I massively agree with Jen actually. The argument we must constantly make is that zero carbon is the way out of both the climate crisis but also the cost of living crisis. Energy efficiency is commensurate with reducing the cost of living crisis. Renewables and getting away from fossil fuels is commensurate with getting away from our reliance on gas. Air quality and other climate change aspects will cost us more if we delay action. That is the point. Yes, it costs to avoid climate change but it will cost a lot more if you don’t and that’s what all of the economics says. It is a complete false economy to basically delay action because it will come back and bite you in the arse, if you take a Fraser term [laughter].
Matt: I like it and I think there are a number of key lessons which we can take forward. I just wanted to thank you both for your time and your wisdom. It’s been a really fascinating chat. Of course, this is an open invitation and we hope to have you back again soon. So if you’re willing and you’ve had a good time, please do come back.
Rebecca: Yeah, and I love how Jeff channelled his inner Fraser. Thank you for that [laughter].
Jeff: I’m missing him already [laughter].
Rebecca: So, Matt, it sounds like we have a lot to take forward to 2022. We really need to make sure we’re focusing a lot more on resourcing and empowering our communities and empowering local authorities by using better forms of data and evidence to support decision-making; supporting engagement with citizens and communities and working across priorities but not letting climate slip away; connecting all of those priorities together with climate front and centre of that focus but linking it with our health, our wellbeing and how we want to have better lives in the future.
Matt: It sounds like it’s going to be another busy year [laughter].
Rebecca: A very busy year to focus on all of that. A lot of excitement to come and brilliant to have Jeff and Jen help us set the tone for 2022.
[Music flourish]
I guess we’re done for this first episode. What an episode that’s been. Of course, please do join the conversation. You can find us on Twitter. We are @LocalZeroPod. Join in the conversation there. If you’re either like me and pretty inept with social media or if you want to share some longer thoughts, you can email us. Our email address is LocalZeroPod@gmail.com. So please do reach out to us on that. We are now back manning it again after a few weeks off over the Christmas and New Year break but for now, I think all that’s left to do is to thank our guests again and thank everybody for listening. We will see you next time. Thanks and bye.
Matt: Until then, bye-bye.
Jen: Bye.
Jeff: Thanks folks. Bye-bye.
[Music flourish]
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