66: Focus on Edinburgh

Edinburgh is both prosperous and wealthy – but also has unique and complex issues to tackle when it comes to reaching their ambitious Net Zero targets. This episode is a deep dive into Scotland's capital city, featuring Councillor Cammy Day, Leader of the City of Edinburgh Council, Bridie Ashrowan, Chief Executive of EVOC (Edinburgh Voluntary Organisations’ Council) and Matthew Lancashire, Director of Zero Matters.

Links:

EVOC: https://www.evoc.org.uk/

Zero Matters: https://zeromatters.scot/

Transcript

Matt: Hello and welcome to Local Zero, your go-to pod for all things local climate action. Long-time listeners will know that we've done a focus on Aberdeen and Glasgow before, but this week we're doing a deep-dive into Scotland's capital city, Edinburgh, and exploring its grassroots climate action. 

Fraser: Joining us today are Cammy Day, a councillor and the leader of Edinburgh City Council, Bridie Ashrowan, CEO of the Edinburgh Voluntary Organisations Council, or EVOC for short, which helps support local voluntary organisations, and finally, Matt Lancashire, Director at Zero Matters, a consultancy helping organisations to achieve net zero.

Matt: Yes, so a plea from us to ask all of our listeners to follow and rate us wherever you get your podcasts from. And if you have the time, a personal recommendation to somebody you think might enjoy it really does go a very long way. So a massive thank you to Ian Souter who did exactly this on Twitter. Thank you Ian, and congratulations on your promotion.

Fraser: Indeed. Congratulations. Uh, nice to see another Dundee boy doing well. 

Matt: So Fraser, very busy episode today. We're digging deep into the case of Edinburgh. So Edinburgh, Scotland's capital city, Scotland, extremely ambitious about what it wants to do with climate change. So I'm really looking forward to digging into it, but neither of us are actually from Edinburgh, so…

Fraser: It's an interesting one. And I'll, I'll tell you, um, I'm a big fan of Edinburgh for one reason and one reason only, and that is the tram. I love the tram. Say what you want about how terribly it was developed…

Matt: Everybody loves the tram.

Fraser: About how much it went over budget. I love the tram.

Matt: Yeah. Well, no, I mean, I'm, I'm a big fan of Edinburgh. I, um, it was a bit of a toss-up about, you know, when I eventually moved to Scotland, about whether it was, uh, Edinburgh or Glasgow, and living in Glasgow, many people say, “Oh, you've made the right decision”. I've got plenty of friends in Edinburgh who'd say I've made the wrong one.

Um, but both fantastic cities. And, uh, you know, when I think about Edinburgh, I think, you know, from a net zero perspective, you're dealing with some really, really ancient, medieval, um, you know, architecture and town planning here. I know you've got the old city and the new city, but, um, no shortage of challenges in terms of how we bring this city kicking and screaming into the 21st century, in terms of low carbon and all things sustainable, really. 

Fraser: Yeah, definitely. It's a, it's a challenging one. That, that housing stock is a really, a really good point. I think the other side of it, though, is that Edinburgh, you never, you never want to get lost in stereotypes, and I'm reticent to do that, but it is quite a generally speaking and in our experience, at least, quite a forward-thinking city, and I would certainly say that the ambition seems to be there, and I'm looking forward to chatting to people who are who are actually doing this in practice just now, but also worth saying that Edinburgh is lovely.

We joke about it all the time, but it is lovely. A really, really amazing place. But I think that it can hide – the beauty of it and the excitement of it – can hide a lot of quite fundamental issues that it definitely still has. We think about Glasgow as being, you know, there's, there's a lot of inequality in Glasgow and a lot of poverty and, um, you know, injustice.

And that's quite, maybe a bit more evident. Um, whereas Edinburgh, I don't think is unique in that it still has those issues, and I think these still need to be wrestled with in this conversation. 

Matt: Quite right. And I think it also, Fraser, before we get stuck in with the guests, it's worth just taking stock about what you and I have actually been doing with our lives.

Fraser: Mate, I don't think I've seen you in ages. 

Matt: You've been busy, have you not, with juries and all sorts? Not the court kind, you're not in trouble or anything. 

Fraser: No, I beat that case, and now we're on to, um, yeah. So, Becky, um, who by, who couldn't be here today, sadly, couldn't be here for the recording. She is still with us. She's still Local Zero number one, but she's on a, she's on a team jolly today – lucky for some. Um, but Becky and I have been running a project with Scottish Government looking at the role of local and community energy in supporting their national just transition ambitions. So how do you get local and community energy?

So whether that's big stuff, like the PFER projects we've been talking about before, or more community-led approaches and community-owned approaches, how do you get them into more excluded or disadvantaged or marginalised communities. As part of that, we’ve been running a citizen's jury. So I'm sure a lot of the listeners will know what we mean by that.

But for anyone who doesn't, um, a citizen's jury, similar to a citizen's assembly on a smaller scale, whereby we bring together normal, actual human people – not just energy wonks – to learn about local and community energy, to talk about the kinds of projects that they would like to see and the principles that they would like to see future policy built on, to make that as accessible and as effective at delivering value and benefit to communities across the country.

So at the time of recording this podcast, we have done two of these sessions already. We've got 25 people, uh, from, from all around Scotland…

Matt: Blimey.

Fraser: Who have been incredible. The level of engagement has been amazing. Uh, we've got another session coming up and then we have our, our deliberations where they basically tell us what we're supposed to tell, uh, Scottish Government, with our own analysis and with our own, um, expertise thrown in.

Matt: Uh, and, uh, well, uh, without any spoilers and maybe you can't even share the findings, but are there, are you finding kind of common themes regardless of people's kind of backgrounds and, uh, you know, professions? Are there, is there a fair amount of agreement or is, or, or not? 

Fraser: People seem generally positive about the idea of energy becoming more local. There's an understanding that, uh, there's a benefit to doing it that way in terms of tailoring it to local needs, to making it work for people in places first and foremost, particularly when you get into that conversation around, around ownership and benefit and the, the priorities of more local energy systems, there's a lot of excitement about people potentially being able to realise a lot of value in their communities.

So whether that's new revenue streams to tackle fuel poverty, uh, whether that's in some cases when you look at the likes of uh, Ripple, um, potentially, you know, saving a bit of money on your bills – a lot of ambition around that. But I think what keeps coming through alongside this is that people don't know about it.

People don't know that energy is becoming more local. People don't know that you can get lots of support to develop your own community energy project. So there's a need there for promotion and definitely for scaling up of support, particularly after the feed-in tariff. 

Matt: Well, and you mentioned Ripple, they're currently on their share offer.

Fraser: Mm hmm.

Matt: So, you know, godspeed to them and hopefully they get, get the money down to build their, um, their solar farm in Devon. On the other hand, I have been a busy bunny, too. We have, before Easter, we were running our community carbon offsetting event.

Fraser: That’s right.

Matt: So many will be familiar with this fast-growing space around nature-based carbon offsetting – that’s planting trees, restoring peatland. And we got about between 30 and 40 experts together at the University of Strathclyde to discuss this, about what the, how these projects and markets should be designed, to really put communities front and centre and to support community wealth-building.

And we've got a sort of mini-series coming out for Local Zero on this exact subject, which is as hot as they come, because, um, whether it's public, private, or third sector, um, communities across, uh, rural Scotland as well, are all really grappling with this as a kind of new wave of, of, um, rural industry, if, for want of a better word. We've had in the past, we've had hydro, we've had oil and gas, we've had onshore wind, and now we're into this kind of new phase of nature-based. 

So, the producers and I have been very busy, so keep your eyes peeled and make sure you can subscribe to us to get these, uh, get these episodes as they come out thick and fast.

Fraser: It's a fascinating topic, Matt, and I think famously, it's just really simple, isn't it? It's really easy to do and to fix. That's right, isn't it? 

Matt: I mean, I have to say each, each step – I keep, I've been kind of on a crash course for it for about 18 months now. And it's one of those that the further you go down the rabbit hole, the more complex it becomes.

Um, which is always, as a researcher, it's bittersweet 'cause you're like, you're like, “Oh, you know, dear, this isn't becoming any clearer. How am I going to put my arms around this and help the world make sense of it?” But on the other hand, it's a bit like mining, you know, for gold or, uh, or if you’re higher, carbon coal, and you find right, “This is a real rich seem here, you know, we can go on and on and on”.

That the thing is, I think research is way behind industry and also way behind, uh, policy makers too. We've got to catch up and we've got to lead the way and be the torchbearers. So yeah, please, please do subscribe and, uh, take note. But yeah, the, the, the citizen's jury sounds fascinating, Fraser, and something that came up at my workshop again – it all comes down to community engagement. What is the format and foundation for that? So I hope you have some pointers, because we sure as heck are going to need them. 

Fraser: Yeah, yeah. I have, I have one, one pointer I'd like to get across. And now, I'm a big believer that we don't have to put everything on people to do absolutely everything that has to happen in the net zero transition.

People have a big role to play. Stuff has to change, that's fair. Um, but if we're doing lots of stuff – we want to do big, ambitious projects or policies or, or initiatives – uh, you need to figure out a way to bring people along meaningfully within that. And I would say, we hear quite often, people just want experts to get on with it. Just leave them alone. Nobody's got time to worry. You know, I'm I'm waiting, I've got two bags of shopping in the rain.

Matt: I thought, I thought we'd had enough of the experts, Fraser – that was what I seem to remember. Is that…

Fraser: That was just us, I think. But this is, this is the point is we hear often that, what do people why do people need to be bothered with this? Leave them alone. I would say never underestimate the enthusiasm that people have for this topic and how much this means to everyone across the board. The key to, to understanding that is, you know, asking people in the first place. If you want to do something to people with people or for people, you need to have them involved.

Matt: Well, and I think this comes back to our topic today in the case of Edinburgh, you know, you've, you've got, like any city across the UK and indeed globally, we've got a lot of changes to make. Um, and it's the people who are ultimately going to undertake those changes, but also invest in those changes and really, um, be the custodians of that change, but also the benefactors.

So, um, how do we, benefactors and beneficiaries, how do we, um, engage people to do that? Because on the one hand, we've got to go faster than we are. But we've also got to make it fairer. And some would argue that “fair” bit could actually slow us down, but your point about bringing people along with you, unless they're in it from the ground floor up, um, that, that change may not be lasting.

Fraser: Yeah. This is exactly it. I think this is, this is crucial. If you want to make the change at all in a sustainable way, in an irreversible way, then you have to do it with with wider buy-in. You have to bring people along with you. But I also think there's this sort of false dichotomy or false equivalence that, that fairness or justice somehow has to take way more time.

It definitely has to take a lot more effort and a lot more thought. And but there are there are people thousands, dozens of thousands of people across the country who do this work, who understand these issues and who have been pushing for this, working with, with people, places, communities everywhere to try and do this, uh, fairly and inclusively and with all that, all that good stuff front and centre of our thinking.

I think what's important now is that we bake that in – as you say – bake that in at the ground floor, into the foundation and, and go for it together. I think that's the only way we can get it done.

Matt: I completely agree. And, and, and talking of engagement and feedback, we have our guests knocking at our virtual door, so we’d better let them in. Uh, but, uh, yeah, so please bring them in. 

Cammy: I'm Councillor Cammy Day and I'm the leader at the City of Edinburgh Council. I’m not only here because we're the capital city, here because as Time Out magazine tells us, it's the best city in the world. 

Bridie: So my name's Bridie Ashrowan and I'm the Chief Executive of Edinburgh Volunteer Organisations Council. That's a very old thing. We've been going since the 1850s. Um, and we work very closely in partnership with, in particular, Volunteer Edinburgh and Edinburgh Social Enterprise to support the third sector. But I see, I also deliberately call it the community and voluntary sector, as well as the social enterprise sector.

Playing with language, because people know what a community is and they usually know what a volunteer is. So yeah, our role is to support that sector in the city and work closely with Cammy. 

Matthew: Hi there, I'm Matt Lancashire. I'm Director of Zero Matters. We're a consultancy that supports business from charities, SMEs, uh, public sector housing associations and wider construction industry or retail sector, achieve net zero. What we do is support them to plan, deliver and communicate that journey, uh, to their wider stakeholders as well.

Matt: Absolute pleasure to have all three of you here. Uh, great representation from across, I guess the sort of three plinths of action, uh, private sector, public sector, third sector. Um, so before we kind of get stuck into how Edinburgh is changing and what its plans and hopes are for the future, I just wondered whether we could just have a word or two, I think, about how you have each sort of personally and professionally been involved in Edinburgh's net zero transition.

What's kind of, you know, day to day, week to week, what's the kind of stuff that's coming across your desks and keeping you busy? Um, Cammy, I'm going to begin with you as leader of Edinburgh City Council. Um, what, uh, what are the key kind of issues regarding net zero that are keeping, uh, keeping you busy at the moment?

Cammy: I suppose to me in terms of our business plan, uh, which is about getting basic services right, about, um, ending poverty by 2030 and getting to net zero by 2030. So it's our key kind of three pillars of our business plan for the next five-year period. I suppose me personally, my job as Council Leader and Convener of Policy and Sustainability Committee, that’s where our work around climate net zero goes.

So it's my job as a lead politician to make sure it's high on our agenda, both in the council, but across the city as well. It's been my role in the last year in this job to make sure that I have these issues high on the agenda with all our partners.

As Bridie says, it's one of our key partners at EVOC and the third sector. Um, but also to make sure that I take that message to the Scottish and UK Governments at every opportunity we can, and we absolutely do that. And just again, personally, I was very lucky to get one of the places on the UK 100's Climate Leadership Academy last year.

Um, actually one of the very few actual council leaders from across the whole of the UK who got the opportunity to learn UK 100 and other people across the country about what's going really well and the challenges we've all got. So, you know, maybe my final part is that, um, I lead the Edinburgh Partnership Board, which brings together all the agencies from across the city to make sure that they can contribute to the more, most effective running of the capital city.

And Bridie obviously represents the third sector there, but I think it's important that that body also, um, doesn't just reflect on our own, their own sector, but that we as the key public sector bodies in the city come together and the challenges we've got to get to 2030. 

Matt: Excellent, thank you. And you've referenced 2030, the net zero target, something Glasgow I think is also committed to, so uh, we're obviously getting dangerously close to that now.

You've mentioned the, the third sector involvement, Bridie, this is, this is your home, this is uh, your involvement through EVOC, what is your sort of day to day, week to week, month to month looking like, um, from the third sector? What, where is that third sector kind of moving into and trying to push the needle?

Bridie: You also want me to mention a bit of history? 

Matt: Yes, by all means, yeah. 

Bridie: So maybe just saying my last job was, included opening a youth club on a Friday evening in the centre that we were, um, about to build. We opened it in some temporary premises across the road and young people were doing some bike maintenance.

And up the road at a, um, very fantastic Black and minority ethnic organisation called SCORE, they were doing the same on Saturday morning, the kids doing bike maintenance and who didn't have bikes and how to get affordable bikes to young people and that sort of thing. So I think there's all sorts of, um, action in the city.

There's a big history of action, citizen action in the city. Um, and in this job, uh, I come right to the present day and what Cammy's just referred to, um, EVOC holds the vice-chair of the Community Planning Partnership. And it relates to something that Matt's just said – you know, the construction industry, we've got 2.5 billion worth of infrastructure planned in this region in the next, in the coming years. How can we make sure that we can leverage that into a just transition into communities that we've never really turned the poverty dial on? Um, that's a really interesting challenge and something we're looking at how, some of the metrics of that and some of the ways we can do that, uh, through the lens of the Community Planning Partnership.

Matt: And are you seeing an appetite from the local community to take climate action on? Is this something that's really starting to kind of emerge or is it, we're not necessarily seeing it? 

Bridie: I would use the word “ambition”. I would use the word “ambition”. We would actually, we see loads of community ambition all across the city. Many of which, many communities have already, are already realising that in some form or other, whether that's out at Portobello or over in Wester Hailes, um, um, community organisations with, for people on local boards who are taking on some quite ambitious projects, um, right the way through to some of the outcomes of our climate forum. Um, EVOC's been supported by the City Council and by the uh, UK Shared Prosperity Fund monies to support climate forums since COP26 was in Glasgow, that was happening here.

Um, we've got a retrofit collective who have come together as part of that. And so “ambition” is the word I would use in communities. 

Matt: Okay. And, uh, translating that ambition to action obviously requires a lot of support. We'll, we'll, we'll get into all of that. That's a real hobby horse of mine and there's lots to discuss.

Bridie: Interesting.

Matt: Matt, um, so from the kind of consultancy angle, you're, you're there sort of, uh, parachuting in, I guess, supporting organisations to make changes. You mentioned a whole range of different, um, customers that you work with from different sectors. What is your day to day, your week to week looking like? What are the, what are the pains and gains that these customers are bringing to you? 

Matthew: I think, I think firstly, businesses across Edinburgh want to achieve net zero. That, that, you know, I think there's a general want to achieve it. I think some of the pains they feel, depending on their size, culture, and approach to it, are around lack of expertise and capacity, uh, within the organisation, to achieve net zero, financial support, the right type of investment, uh, to deliver the outcomes they want from net zero as well.

I also get a sense as well that more and more businesses are seeing this less as a tick-box kind of approach, more as a value-driven approach to their business, i.e. looking at their business models, not trying to overlay net zero onto already what they're doing, but using net zero to adjust their business models to look at how that changes profitability within their business, changes productivity, increases commercial gain, too.

And I think that's a shift we're seeing in the rationale, I suppose, or logic for a, uh, a business owner to actually take on board, uh, net zero on it. Whereas previously, there's an argument it was more about, um, a nice to have, a nice, nice sticker on the window as such, uh, rather than actually that value that's driven out for becoming a net zero business.

I think one of the struggles they are finding is, and I think there are, I think it is different in other parts of Scotland. I, previous, in a previous role I was deputy CEO of SCDI. So I've got an understanding of regional economics across, across Scotland quite well. I think it is different in different places in Scotland.

For example, in Aberdeen in the North East, I saw a recent study that four out of five people understand what just transition is, in comparison to other Scottish and UK cities, that drops to 2 in 5. So actually, there was a bit of a cultural approach that we still need to overcome in Edinburgh to really get people behind that 2030 target, not just from a business angle, but just from a population and societal angle and the type of city that we want to live in in the next 5, 10, 15 years’ time.

And I suppose my, my, my last abiding point, is, uh – and I've probably got a lot more to say later on – uh, my last point on this is I think there is an awful lot of good work going on at a strategy and policy level by Edinburgh City Council. There's a number of groups set up, as Cammy touched on, to support, I suppose driving the policy that will enable action to take place and investment to flood into the city around net zero and sustainability, too.

I do think that there is a chasm between what's happening at that strategic level and what's practically happening at a citizen and business level, level too. And I think that's the area we need to really focus on if we're going to shift the dial on 2030.

Fraser: I think that's an interesting point, Matt, and we'll definitely pick up the sort of public understanding of just transition. That's been another hobby horse on this podcast. Um, it’s something that comes up a lot. But I guess on your last point, that marrying together the strategic vision and the ambition that Bridie highlighted, um, with, with action and progress. Cammy, I'm wondering if you can talk to, we talked about the sort of the future vision for Edinburgh.

Um, but what progress is happening sort of day to day? Where are we at with that? And how, I guess, how confident are you on the sort of trajectory towards that bigger vision? 

Cammy: So I think as Matt touched on earlier, you know, we're at 2023. Seven years to go to get to net zero is a huge challenge, and none of us want to get to 2030 and say, “Let's offset this by planting 10 billion trees around the city”, which some corporates have already done.

Um, I suppose, what are we doing so far? I mean, as Bridie touched on, we're working with the sector across across Edinburgh to try and make this a goal, um, for the whole city, never mind just for the City Council. I think for me, the biggest area – I was talking about this earlier on with my colleagues – you know, how do we make the transition to net zero for everybody?

Now, if you're if you’re – and I'll use some fairly blunt language – if you're middle class and you can afford to buy a Tesla and retrofit your house, then we're all fine. But if you're a one-parent family in Pilton who's struggling to pay the rent and feed their kids, how do we make sure that – and I'm in no way saying that people who are poorer don't relish the challenges of net zero, but we need to be realistic about that.

Have you got 10 grand, at least, to retrofit your home, um, because the public, the authorities haven't got the money to meet the current targets that are being demanded to achieve it. How, I suppose for me, how do we make it relevant to everybody in this city to make sure that you can do something? Might not be about retrofitting your home or buying a fancy car, but what small steps can you take to travel locally, to not need to use your car, to join the city car club?

And I say this, Fraser, because I'm in this exact position. I've got a little Mini that I seldom use now, and I'm thinking about can I change my routines to join the city car club, use the bus that I've got – the best bus service in the country, um, publicly-owned bus service. But how do you make that shift from what's been our norm for, for me, my work of last two decades, travelling about in a city by car to be changing that, that, that transport use?

So we are, we're massively doing work in Edinburgh. So we've just opened, or just about to open, the next substantial link to the tram line into Newhaven, which will go through the most densely populated part, or one of the most densely populated parts of Scotland, being down Leith Walk into Newhaven, where we've seen a boom in, uh, properties being built there.

So a £200 million tram, um, will go down through the heart of that part of the city, and encourage people to use the tram as their way of getting around, getting around the city. As part of that we, we're embarking on, um, installing electric vehicle charging points, but that's a chicken and egg for us as well, because we're not going to invest money and take up people's parking spaces for charging points that are not getting used because people can't afford to buy electric cars that are too expensive.

So, you know, there's a catch 22 for us in what we're doing, doing there. Um, I suppose just a couple of the things that we're doing, but I think importantly, and probably things that, that Bridie will talk on, to make sure that no one feels stigmatised through this process as well, that “You must do this”. You know, for me, if we can encourage people across the city to make these tiny steps to get to 2030, all of these tiny steps will come together to make that big leap that we need to get to 2030.

But I suppose maybe the most important thing is, we'll never get there without a real change in government policy. The cost to upgrade council buildings alone is in excess of four billion pounds – four times our annual budget. Um, and that doesn't include the 20,000 council homes we, that we own. And we've not seen any change in the government's policy in terms of – we've had policy change, that's unfair.

We have had policy change from the government, but no change at all in the amount of money that's brought forward to fund any of these initiatives. So, 50-odd million pounds was put in in ‘21, ‘22 – no change to that. It's at a time when all the costs are going up and up and up. So, to bid into that pot of money, we, Edinburgh alone will spend that 50 million pounds, no problem.

Um, so we need not just warm words from our governments. And I say that to Scottish Government and UK Governments, if you want public bodies and homeowners to change the way they heat their homes, travel around, then that needs real investment. And I think if I was being blunt and it's been, and I can quote them, uh, by government ministers and conveners from the Scottish and UK Government saying that without government policy change and the money that comes with it, we will never get to net zero.

Fraser: I think that's an entirely fair point. I think that the, the scale of it and, and something that we, we see Matt, certainly when we have these conversations is the, there's, there's no, as Bridie mentioned, in communities, but at local authorities, different organisations, there's no short of, shortage of ambition to get this stuff done, but it has to come with a big transformation.

Bridie, something that Cammy talked about there was making sure that this isn't just a middle class thing that benefits predominantly middle class homeowners. And when we, when we do this work out in communities, invariably, uh, the third sector community and voluntary sector are there right on the, right on the front of it, making sure that people are involved in the conversation, that they’re, they're engaged within processes, etcetera. But what are some of the, the key challenges you face with doing that? And what are some of the, the exciting work that you see going on around, around those kinds of communities in the city?

Bridie: It's multifaceted in some ways, and I suppose one of the things we're trying to do is bring in examples of that, whether it's in the city and people to be exposed to that across the city with each other, in terms of where that ambition has been realised, um, as well as across Scotland. You know, if you look up to the west coast, we've got community development trusts that are managing land and energy, uh, facilities from wind farms to, um, uh, other facilities that are actually generating energy with confidence and building community-owned homes, these sorts of things. 

And that's being done by community-owned development trusts. So I think one needs mechanisms to support that community ambition. Um, and that's something we really want to see the development of in the, in the city, more, more, more of those, but there are fantastic examples already.

And just to say what a development trust is, is a local, place-based charity, which can bring funds in from different sources. It will tend to have a variety of activities. Uh, the key thing is that local people are on the board. Um, and it's a mechanism by which you can manage things that are, actually are about creating infrastructure and responding to some of the things that need to be, that need to be created at pace if we're going to really get to, um, net zero, and also if we're going to create a just transition.

Um, and there's a, there's less of those in urban environments in general in Scotland, and we've got less, a bit, a bit less again in Edinburgh. So how could we really grow those? Um, in my, in my last role, um, at Space in Broomhouse Hub, we did a 3.2 million pound build, um, with really good environmental standards within that.

Um, and at the end, we put in some electric bikes for local staff to be able to use, um, as well as encouraging public transport. Um, but there are parts of the city you can't get to to reach a needy family, unless you need some sort of individualised transport. So, how can we actually help multiply up that sort of effort across the, across the city?

We've got bits of the city with very low infrastructure in terms of the community sector. So, you might have, um, aspiration of a local group to actually get towards the, but that's exactly what EVOC's there to do, is actually to help people create good, um, good organisations with good governance, good financial management.

You know, invest in your people and be able to tell the story of what you're doing. Um, and, and so I think that investment in community aspiration and community ambition is actually, um, there is a level of that and, and the climate forums uncovered that. But actually, I think we need it at pace, um, particularly from government and from, um, and from a UK Government at level, as well. It’s about new money, but it's also about existing money.

You know, we have to remember this, that with this, this planned infrastructure investment across, across many public partners, from the universities through to the NHS, um, any building that goes in often needs quite practical skills, um, you know, coming back to Matt's point earlier about SMEs and, and businesses, some of those are actually, they're not rocket science skills about getting us to the moon, they're plumbing and electrician skills that can be tweaked.

So actually it's the ability in some of our areas of deprivation for those schools to know about those opportunities for young people to join their local, to be employed by their local SMEs, um, and for contracts to go to SMEs and to social enterprises, um, within the city. Start also with subcontracts for some of these big pieces of investment.

Um, that actually then lead to local jobs. Um, a just transition can be a good local job in an SME or in a community organisation or in a social enterprise. Um, it, it, it, it isn't just the community benefit of a small bit of an investment in a garden or something like that. We can do more ambitious things than that again.

Um, I'm also really interested, where possible, to get early conversations. As there's actually investment going in because these are really interesting, rather than just the architect's vision of whatever's going to be created. We had an example of this, by the way, where the architect and the commissioners for a piece of work, piece of work came along to speak to some of the community in Liberton and some of the local organisations, architect really passionate about Passivhaus.

It was already going on in the community. There were volunteers being trained in Passivhaus in the community. So how can we front load some of these really interesting conversations with communities, with community councils, with community organisations and with young people and with schools, and actually unlock that ambition?

Matt: Yeah, there's, I mean, there's a broader question and I'm going to come to Matt in a moment. I've got a question for you, but just, there's a, just a note, there's a broader question here about where you kind of develop these capacities and capabilities, which we have to acknowledge are different – capabilities are kind of, you know, what you can do and the capacity is, is, is the ability, not the ability, the time and space, the resource to, to be able to flex those capabilities.

Um, but for me, there's something that's coming out here around, what do we, you know, which sector do we expect to take responsibility for doing the stuff? But then also, which sector do we expect to take responsibility for cultivating that ability to do stuff? And so I can imagine there's a world there where the private sector or council or public sector put in place the foundations to enable communities to get on and do this stuff. And that means that they don't then have to do it. So, maybe we'll come back, come back to that point. But Matt, I just had a question there, maybe with your kind of business cap on, sort of exploring this point about progress in Edinburgh, and, and, and the city region there.

Where are you kind of surprised uh, where, you know, the level of progress that's being made in businesses, and where are you, where are the examples of where maybe you're frustrated that more progress isn't being made? Are there any surprises there? 

Matthew: I think there is progress. Um, I'll come back and answer that question at the end, but it was touching on some of Cammy and Bridie's points here. I think, so, if you've got a, a business wanting to locate in Edinburgh, they've come in and said, “Listen, we're gonna make, uh, have a Scottish offer or a UK office and it's gonna be our European HQ”, or a relatively large business, or whatever it might be.

Or even if you've got a smaller business setting up, question surely has to be what are they bringing to the city from a sustainability factor and perspective? And how does that generation of investment actually help create jobs that are green jobs, that are sustainable, that have the knock-on effect of supporting those wider communities that, that Bridie's highlighted themselves? So if you look at investment, if you're going to go off and build, I don't know, a £25 million building in Edinburgh right now.

Well, let's look around that building. What exists? How's that, let, let’s kind of do a systems re-think. Rather than just plug it into the mains, and go, “Right, there's your gas, there's your electricity, crack on, you're hooked up to Scottish Gas. Great, great. Brilliant. Fantastic. Job done”. That's easy. Actually, how do you, you know, if it's located half a kilometre from a big hospital, why isn't there a local heat district network?

Why isn't there something that is taking these things outwith the, the main type of body of thinking around energy or around energy efficiency, or whatever it might be as well? And I think that's the challenge, because when we ask these companies to come in, or there's a big new housing development, we always say, “Oh, can you put a bus route in? Can you make sure there's a minibus to get people to the opening?” Well actually, actually no, can you go and heat the rest of the town for us? 

Matt: I think that you've raised a really interesting point there about what the priorities are for business. You, you may have just been sort of highlighting a kind of, you know, illustrative case, but you kind of, um, presented transport as a priority for some of these organisations, and actually on the other hand heating isn't necessarily.

And I guess if I'm a business, for me, one of the most conspicuous things that I would do in terms of my carbon footprint would be how my employees travel to and from work. But also, how they travel to and from work really matters to my employees because, you know, their commute really makes a difference to them in terms of the cost.

Cammy, you're talking about whether you need a car or not. I mean, that's, that's a, you know, a millstone around your neck each year in terms of MOT, insurance. Are you finding, Matt, that your businesses are possibly kind of cherry picking, um, carbon issues because they align with other issues, you know, that they're, they're looking to sort of, they're, they're tangling with.

Matthew: Firstly, Matt, I want a few clients left at the end of this podcast. They're all obviously, they're all obviously doing the best things ever, right? Uh, to, to, to be fair, there are businesses – none that I work with – uh, that are doing the right things and they're, they're going right through scope one, scope two, scope three, looking as far as they can get the data to make the changes that they can.

They're seeing this not as a tick-box kind of exercise that they can advertise they've done something on active travel – which don't get me wrong is important culturally to a business and the way they're heading – but actually looking more fundamentally about where their supply chain is, where it's located, looking at um, more local supply chains, looking at using a more so circular approach to their business and such so as well.

So the ones who get it, see the value. I don't think every business gets it yet. The ones that have got it really don't know what to do with it. And the ones that have started on their own doing it go, “We really don't have the expertise or skills to deliver it”. So you're talking at different points of a business's journey, I suppose. And depending on the size and nature of it. We, we, we’ve had one business lately that will remain nameless º a great business, fantastic business. Does a lot of good work. Creates a lot of jobs in Scotland and Edinburgh and beyond.

However, they were pretty, pretty ambivalent about their net zero strategy. You want to reach re, retested. What did it re-strengthened and actually meaningful, to actually gain them the opportunity of reaching to, uh, net zero by 2040. And that's the key. But people are starting to realise that just saying things or branding something or doing a bit of PR or something is not enough. They need to go deeper and faster and quicker. 

Fraser: Yeah, I'd like to, picking up on that, that point, Matt, on um, supply chains and I guess the broader point around capturing local value. Uh, Cammy, what, what do you see as, I guess, the, the council's role? And not just in, I, I appreciate we'll all share that ambition, but in terms of practically, how can you help to, to capture that value, whether that's the jobs, whether that's stimulating the local supply chains, how do you make that happen in practice?

Cammy: So we've got probably a live example now of how we are shifting, and I totally get what Matt says. I don't think any, particularly public bodies, have caught up with this as well. We don't have the expertise as well. We rely on the private sector to bring this expertise in. And so we're kind of caught with trusting and relying on that sector to come forward with the best technology.

We have a development in Granton just behind the new station, the old station building, sorry. That will be our first 70-odd net zero houses being built with a district heating system. One of the first times we've built a district heating system, maybe unfair to say ever, but in a long time in the city.

And I think that's going to include uh, air source heat pumps. Now I say that not knowing enough about all that, but people who I talked to already saying, “Yeah, but that's not the best system to be using for that”. So, um, and again, so that's starting to bring that industry into the city to say, “We need your expertise and your workforce to bring in the air source heat pumps”.

We are now just having the discussion uh, yesterday about bringing in a heat network through the sewage pipes along, uh, the waterfront into the sea, to heat thousands of homes. And of course we've had the discussion about where else can we plug that into? And I don't think we're ambitious enough yet, because it we'll plug into, to be fair, the local high school, two primary schools and the network of homes across here.

The college is next door. Edinburgh College is next door to where this will be, but we've not talked to them. Uh, Leonardo, the biggest collection of engineers in Scotland at Crewe Toll, thousands of staff, we've not talked to them either. So I think we're taking small steps to try and do that, probably because we're nervous that we don't know enough about it, and relying on the industry.

And when the industry come in – I recently met with Vattenfall about the work they're doing in Midlothian, about how we can have these energy plants in Edinburgh. And I think, I think as we did, if I jump back a wee bit, we bought the land in Granton from National Grid um, at a time when the economy was at its lowest, and with ambition to take control of that land and make it a huge development.

And I think it will be partly upon local authorities like us to say, to push that boat and say we do want to try these different, uh, heat networks and that we might get it wrong sometimes. We'll have to work of course for the private sector and learn, make mistakes sometimes. And I think then, then the trades will follow that.

I think if I was to be upfront now, I think one of the problems we have is will be the recruitment of the people to deliver this area of work. So I, I have been approached by one organisation, Vattenfall, um, I don't know who else can deliver this kind of work. Probably Matt, Matt maybe knows that kind of work, but, um, I think it is incumbent on us, Fraser, to, to push the boat out and say, we will lead by example.

We want to have our, particularly our social housing in Edinburgh, have the best and lowest heat costs possible. That will come at a fairly big expense to the local authority, um, but we should be bold enough to do that, because we know that by reducing the heat or changing the heat, the way we heat people's homes, puts money in their pockets and you talk, I mean, you know, for us it's important to deal with not only um, climate but with poverty.

It's part of my thinking about people needing to be involved in it, wherever you are on that, that spectrum. So that does need the local authorities like us to take a leading role, as we did buying up, um, private land to take control of it and build affordable housing and cultural experiences. The next part of that is about how do we make sure, and I like Matt's point about, because we do get that, will you make sure there's a public bus going through this new community we're building?

Yeah. But what we're now seeing is, but as well as the bus, we need a different heating system. 

Matt: Yeah. And Cammy, you started to move into, uh, I guess one of my favourite territories with this pod, is starting to kind of pick apart some of the unique or rare place-based characteristics of these places that we talk about, right?

So. You know, Bridie, you're speaking to all of these different organisations. From your perspective, what are the kind of, some of the unique or rare challenges, but also the opportunities that present themselves in Edinburgh? There is no city like it. There might be similar cities, but I've probably haven't visited many of them. What, what makes, what makes it particularly easy or difficult to do climate action from the, from, you know, from the bottom up in Edinburgh?

Bridie: Um, I think there's a couple, a few different key things that make it a challenge. Um, so for example the fact that we still have some of the highest poverty in Scotland. It's not visible, it's, you know, Edinburgh's a very beautiful city and when you first come, um, that's not necessarily what you see, but there are parts of the city in terms of our uh, the actual statistics that we've got some very deep poverty. Um, and therefore, you know, communities that are, um, feeling disconnected or where there is, you know, multi-generational trauma and we need to be making sure they've got the right support for, for, uh, for those sorts of things.

Ironically, though, within those communities there are often the greatest act, is often the greatest activism, as well. Um, so actually it's actually matching the ambition of some of the activism within that to actually take things forward. Um, we were delighted to be part of conversations when we actually have a chance at EVOC to go out and support those conversations to happen. Because our role is often a convening role.

It's where we are not the general organising director of everything. It's actually to support inspiration and relationship and, um, uh, connecting that with ambition. So one of the challenges is we've got deep poverty in the city and there's a lot of historical issues about that. We've also got a policy context that actually mitigates against it as well with policies that actually creates poverty and ongoing deepening poverty.

Because that's going up with the child poverty. Or actually decisions that could be changed at a UK-wide level to invest in housing, to invest in people and, and to actually turn inequalities around. We've we've got bits of the city where you go down the road and you lose 20 years in your average lifespan.

We could be investing better at a UK-wide level and the Poverty Commission, which was led, you know, EVOC was part of the voices that created the momentum for that. Uh, the effort has gone in at the council to actually do that. Cammy is deeply, been deeply involved in that. The outcomes of that now, where to say to UK and Scottish Governments, we can change the poverty dial.

So I think it is quite, there are some really big challenges, um, to actually then do net zero at the same time, but actually let's make sure to connect those two very things. The last point for me is we're a really fast growing city. It's a place where people want to live and prices are going up fast. So how can you combine things like, um, you know, community-owned solar co ops, community-owned housing, that's actually creating those things.

So we've got, we've got the ambitions that Cammy described, but equally, let's make sure we're investing in community ambitions because of both added together, you've actually got some real alchemy. 

Matt: And before we move on to our final question, to Matt and Cammy, same kind of question, really, what are the somewhat, that might not be entirely unique, but somewhat unique opportunities or challenges that Edinburgh faces. Matt, maybe we'll begin with you and Cammy if you want to have a, uh, have a final word on, and then over to Fraser. 

Matthew: As Cammy started, uh, Edinburgh is a world-class city. Let's not forget that. Globally, it is a renowned, historical, world-class city. A strong regulatory system. We've got a vibrant finance, legal, tourism sector.

We've got innovation coming out of our bones with three universities, Heriot-Watt, Edinburgh University and Napier. I've probably forgotten Edinburgh School of Art within that, so four. We've got a digital ecosystem that is world renowned and world class. And with all that goes with that, there is wealth – as well as poverty, there's significant wealth in Edinburgh. There is a highly skilled workforce. Those are the positives. So you bring all those attributes to the table, you should be able to solve anything. 

Matt: Yes, yeah, you're making it sound relatively easy at the moment, Matt. I'm joking, I'm just kidding. 

Matthew: I know, I'll come back on the negative bits as well though, because, because we have those attributes. It should be a lot easier perhaps than we're making it. And I'll be doing too much talking at a strategic level, actually, say, rather than practical action, at grassroots – whether it's local communities, local businesses level, that needs to happen. That's where the dial will be shifted, not in a boardroom or the city chambers.

Sorry, Cammy. It will be changed. They create the conditions, it's people on the ground that will make the difference and make the physical change to net zero. 

Matt: Thank you. Cammy, a right to reply to various points there I think. 

Cammy: So I think in principle, I would agree with the points that Bridie and Matt raised, you know, and particularly the points actually about the decisions, the decisions might be taken up here, but how people change is taken absolutely in communities. We learnt that during COVID, that the people who have the best solutions to community issues are the people who live in that community. And it's exactly what they did during, um, COVID. Um, I suppose to add to the many challenges that Bridie and Matt raised, I'd also add the fact that we have a World Heritage site, you know, we're a historic city, but that brings us different challenges from other cities as well.

And I absolutely agree with Matt's point about the lack of action across the globe, actually, I think Edinburgh and many other cities in the UK, to be fair, are leading in this. We have a pretty bold and ambitious climate strategy to get to 2030, with six bold points, which I'm sure you can read on our website about climate action.

Um, and I think that “get on with it” attitude needs to be something we do. Something we did recently, which I think showed that commitment, is whilst it was maybe only 100,000 pounds, which we then increased 140,000, was the Community Climate Fund where we put a bid to see who could come forward some ideas to, I suppose, to get community groups mobilised about you actually can do something – not change the world, but if you can get 10 grand of us to, from us, to start a project in your area, that might seem minor in the bigger scheme of things, but if 56, the 56 organisations that apply for it get some money, then 56 different groups are making an impact on climate in the city.

Now that was hugely oversubscribed, um, and I hope it's something we'll rerun again. I hope it's something we'll go back to the government to say, “We need these community solutions to come forward, and that might also need the private sector to come in with the technology and the brains behind that”. But I think the thinking and the solutions need to be done by local communities and that was evidenced by that over subscription to that 140 grand we raised.

We've also set up the Edinburgh Climate Action Network, um, part of a national chain to network across the country to see what we can learn from other people. So I think we're trying. We don't have the expertise, and we're not pretending we've got it all here. We've recently appointed a new Climate Strategy Manager who will help lead all our work together.

But I think it's also changing technology. So whilst we talk one minute about air source heat pumps and district heating systems, and I roll these off my head like I know what I'm talking about, and I absolutely don’t – the other day, even one of my colleagues who's a professor in this doesn't quite understand how you can get heat from sewers, and none of us do, and nor does it sound right.

But, you know, I think as the technology advances as well, we are always, as public authorities, trying to make the best use of public money – to throw all your money into one area of technology when in two years time we're not using that and we've shifted. There's always like a bit of chicken and egg for us, us as well, Matt.

Fraser: I think I've got about 700 more questions that, that we could ask and that we could talk about, but we do have to wrap it at some point, I'm afraid. So before we do finish up, I'd like to press yous all, uh, sharp, short, one sentence. It could be anything you like, and we'll start with Cammy, then Matt, then Bridie.

I want to know what is your big vision or the one big change that you want to see to help Edinburgh attain this, this ambition of a just net zero transition. Cammy, Matt and then Bridie to finish. 

Cammy: I'll maybe make one sentence, it might slightly have two things in it. I think for me as the leader of a capital city it has to be about more, more power for local authorities to act and not to just sit in committee rooms in parliament and talk about powers that we can act on which we're very, very limited in. And alongside that to enable us to act that has to come with a genuine commitment from the UK and Scottish Government to resource some of that work, to make the change happen in communities across our city. And that would be my simple ask, Fraser. 

Fraser: Very simple and straightforward, I think. Uh, Matt, next. 

Matthew: It's probably quite, quite similar to Cammy's, to be fair. Um, I, I would rather that we stop the talking at a boardroom level, actually agree some concrete actions and objectives from a strategic perspective, and those were implemented at a practical local level and a business level as quickly as possible. We started a conversation with 2030, we're six-and-a-half years away and we're still discussing a strategic level, um, what needs to happen on a net zero perspective and not enough action at a practical local level.

Fraser: Bridie, the final word. 

Bridie: Oh, thank you. A community development trust in every part of the city that’s, can harness community ambition, including young people's, um, to create a future that's worth living in and thriving communities around it. Um, from a sort of wellbeing point of view, socially, ecologically, um, and nature. Um, I could see communities driving that. Let’s invest in them and back them.

Matt: Fantastic. Well, thank you to you – uh, all an absolute pleasure to have you along. You have been listening to Local Zero. Thanks to our guests and everyone we've heard from about this episode. And we look forward to hearing about what you think about our guests’ perspectives – there’s lots of food for thought there.

If you haven't already, go and find and follow us @localzeropod on Twitter to get involved in discussions over there. And also if you have any thoughts, feelings, um, hopes and fears, uh, please share them with us via email at localzeropod@gmail.com. A final plea please to rate and review the pod. It's been great reaching out to new listeners recently.

So thank you to all of those who've shared and done this already. But until next time, thank you to our guests. Thank you for listening. Goodbye.

Matthew: Cheers.

Cammy: Thank you.

Fraser: Goodbye. Bye bye. Bye bye.