107: Climate change adaptation – a primer

Matt and Jen are joined by researcher Dr Emma Yule for a comprehensive primer on climate change adaptation. What is it, and how does it interact with mitigation? What could adaptation look like in practical terms? How do we measure success? What are some of the challenges to effective adaptation – and what kind of benefits could arise from it?

But first, the episode kicks off with Matt and Jen exchanging wildlife sightings and nature observations – some unsettling, some exciting.

Links:

Dr Emma Yule: https://edinburghcentre.org/team/emma-yule

Progress in adapting to climate change: 2025 report to Parliament: https://www.theccc.org.uk/publication/progress-in-adapting-to-climate-change-2025/

Episode 37 – Decarbonising infrastructure: https://www.localzeropod.com/episodes/decarbonising-infrastructure

Scottish National Adaptation Plan 2024-2029: https://www.gov.scot/publications/scottish-national-adaptation-plan-2024-2029-2/

UK Government Third National Adaptation Programme: https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/third-national-adaptation-programme-nap3

Transcript:

Emma: I think we're starting to understand that or change the conversation a little bit to understand what the cost of inaction is, and that can help us show what needs to be done and, and why that needs to be spent. 

Matt: Hello, I'm Matt Hannon.  

Jen: And I'm Jen Roberts. Welcome to Local Zero.  

Matt: In this episode, we are getting a primer on climate change adaptation. In other words, the action we can take now, and into the future, to prepare ourselves for the effects of climate change.  

Jen: So joining us a little bit later is Dr Emma Yule, a researcher focused on climate adaptation. Emma is a director at the Scottish Communities Climate Action Network and vice chair of the 2050 Climate Group.  

Matt: Emma also co-chairs the Edinburgh Climate Change Institute's Adaptation Community of Practice. So she's in a great position to help us get to grips with what adaptation means for communities, how it relates to climate change mitigation, and how we can adapt in a way that protects the most vulnerable people  

Jen: Before we get started, a reminder that LinkedIn is the place to stay up-to-date with Local Zero, and to share your thoughts about our episodes with us and other listeners. So just search for "Local Zero podcast".  

Matt: And if you haven't already, do remember to also subscribe to Local Zero in your podcast app, so you never miss an episode. 

Jen: So Matt, it's your first day back after taking holiday. Welcome back. How was it?  

Matt: Good. So as we're recording, Easter Monday is just behind us, so we got some, I think it's fair to say Jen, some well-earned respite. The two of us were working like maniacs in the lead up to, uh, the Easter holidays. We had a big, big report launch. 

I pressed "send", and about 15 minutes after that, downed tools for 10 or so days. And had a... well, was it relaxing? It was a very fun Easter. I'm very tired. But that's because we did a lot of cool stuff. How about you?  

Jen: That's the best sort of holiday. I always like to come back from holiday absolutely shattered, but in all the best sort of ways. 

Um, yeah, I mean I was off just the long weekend just there. Um, and, uh, quite late notice, actually just decided to go for a nice, long- distance walk. So a walk that didn't require loads of navigation. I was just following signs. It was the St Cuthbert's way, which takes you from the Borders so through to, to Lindisfarne. 

And honestly it was so refreshing and I am, you know, my legs, my legs are like, "What are you doing sat at a desk?".  

Matt: Yeah. 

Jen: "We were walking". 

Matt: Yeah. "Why, why aren't you walking 25 miles a day? What's going on?" We were on the west coast. We, we were in Arran and it was, uh, very busy. We did, you know, biking, climbing, hiking, all the rest. 

But what I really take away from the few days we had was the wildlife. Like, I mean, you're really not that far from Glasgow where you are on the west side of Arran. And for the uninitiated, Glasgow, Central Belt in general, uh, pretty denuded of, of, uh, I guess a sort of natural landscape. There's pockets of, of beauty, of course there are. 

Um, but Arran feels like the first place, or one of the first places, where you can really get away from it. And we saw, um, a hen harrier, which was amazing, in the evening, just sort of circling around for its, uh, for its dinner. Um, just up the road from there, we counted 35 seals, I dunno whether they were grey or common, I, I always struggled to pick, but each one was laid sort of belly flat on the rocks. Some of the rocks were like four or five feet high. So how – I assume they perched up at high tide and they got sort of stranded there at low tide. They looked like sort of rock- climbing seals, but unbelievable. You know, it was really, really beautiful. 

And, um, I'm a bit of a closet kind of rock pooler, uh, or something I never really grew out of as a kid. Uh, but now I've got kids, it's legit for me to go around skulking around rock, rock pools as somebody who's nearly forty years old. Um, but we caught some amazing stuff. Uh, big fish, crabs and all the rest. 

So yes, there is nature still out there. You just need to know where to look. 

Jen: Yeah, I was also thinking, 'cause I was walking on this pretty dry landscape, we're entering a, an unusually dry you know, late spring, early summer. 

Matt: Mm. 

Jen: So some of the, you know, daffodils were still still going. Um, some of the really spring species were kind of brand new and others, and there were butterflies and, and bees really out, um, earlier than much earlier than usual. 

Um, and I just thought of that, thinking of today's sort of theme today about adaptation, it's also how our natural environment, how nature is adapting.  

Matt: Yeah, and reacts.  

Jen: Um, or not. I remember, I mean I was reading that last year was a terrible year for bumblebees. 

Matt: Mm-hmm. 

Jen: It was really great weather, they all came out of hibernation, and then there was a deluge of terrible weather. 

Um, and that really affected their numbers for the rest of the season. And I'm a little bit concerned having just walked across those landscapes and observing these different things, how it's gonna look for this year as well.  

Matt: Yeah, I mean, even just in the, into the back garden, I'm seeing species bloom and spawn and all these things all happening simultaneously when I would expect them to be spaced out. 

So I'm kind of seeing tulips against daffodils, or I'm seeing, you know, bumblebees out next to the kind of, what did I see the other day, sort of hellebores or snowdrops. I was like, whoa, this is. This is not right. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: Um, and that's the natural pattern of things, you know, being disrupted. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: So I guess today we're talking about climate adaptation and it's for us as a species, you know, when we're talking about, we're often talking about how we can adapt. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: But we are reliant on a much bigger food web, food chain, much broader ecosystem. We're just part of this. If that can't adapt, then we can't adapt, you know?  

Jen: Oh, sometimes knowledge is, with it, with it comes a sense of sorrow because you can't just observe the natural world around. You've then got to worry about 

Matt: Yeah. 

Jen: Um, the timings of things. But yeah, I learned recently at, um, an event about, where a climate and health emergencies meet, I learned about, um, how seabird colonies are already adapting to lack of food in, in the, the sea. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Jen: So particularly these kind of the tiny silver fish, the ones that you see in, hanging out the mouths of puffins. 

Matt: Mm. 

Jen: Um, they're...  

Matt: Are they sand eels or something? 

Jen: Sand eels, yeah. And other, other small frats, whatever they're called. Sprats? I don't know the right word. 

Matt: Frats and sprats. Frats is a different, totally different story. Yeah.  

Jen: Tiny fish. Little fish. And also I think the algae and so on, um, the, the phytoplankton that that feed the things lower down the, the food chain.  

Matt: Yeah. 

Jen: And I, it was framed around families and I think that's the thing that really was quite affecting. So they were saying that now guillemot, um... 

Matt: Yes. 

Jen: 30, 40 years ago,  guillemots, uh, would've been seen with one chick, um, and two parents and well, maybe one parent every now and again would fly off to go and get some food and they'd come back. And then the other parent, they'd sort of tag team.  

Matt: It's familiar.  

Jen: Um, and sometimes there'd be periods when both parents were around. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Jen: Whereas nowadays, apparently it's very, very rare to see two parents with one chick. Usually the chick is either with one parent or it's left on its own. 

Matt: Yeah. Okay. 

Jen: And this like family dynamic, because of their lack of food to be able to feed, you know, these chicks with plentiful resources. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Jen: That's affecting the family dynamics, and it's also affecting how the chicks learn. So it's, you're already seeing adaptation, whether that's to food systems change, to ecosystems change and uh, of course climate change will be interwoven within that. So there's an interesting thing though, of how we are already seeing nature adapt. How are we adapting?  

Matt: Yeah. And I think it's also worth emphasising why we're talking about adaptation today. My reflection is that it's becoming more and more important, when we aren't making the progress we need to in terms of mitigation. Um, that is absolutely not to say it is replacing or trying to displace the role that mitigation is gonna play. 

You know, we've talked about mitigation till we're blue in the face on this pod. But you know, each day, week, month, that goes by and we're not making the progress we need in terms of carbon emissions, we are, by definition, we're going to need to adapt. We must change.  

Jen: Yeah, yeah. No, I see it moving up the agenda. So as we see progressive inaction, you know, there's action on climate change, there's climate change mitigation, but as we know, it's not, there's not enough transformation of society. So we are seeing increased emphasis on the fact that we are already living in climate change and therefore we are already needing to adapt to that climate change. 

We know that there's going to be an overshoot. Um, we have to do very like drastic and important things to limit and then restore after that overshoot. So given that we are in a 1.5-degree world, I guess what we're now, now starting to see is we need better clarity on what adaptation pathways there are. 

So we are very, very used to climate mitigation pathways, but rising up the agenda has been climate adaptation pathways, um, particularly with kind of national contributions, so at UN FCCC level, but then down to, um, the critical infrastructure level, what needs to be done to ensure that our critical infrastructure is climate resilient? 

And that comes to adaptation really, because we've already got a certain amount of warming baked in, and...  

Matt: Yeah.  

Jen: With that, a certain amount of, uh, climate impact.  

Matt: And it's, it's probably worth noting at this point, I mean, we, we did do a, a, a whole episode on, I guess the, the climate resilience of infrastructure, um, which we will, we will put in the show notes for sure to, uh, re-up that so people got a sense of that. 

Um, but I dunno, I, adaptation takes many, many different forms. So I think, you know, behavioural is really interesting rather than just... 

Jen: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: The landscape. 

Jen: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Trying to think about, um, how we shift. And even to sort of the more, I don't know, mundane, um, uh, one of the, the obvious example that kind of fits for me is like when people go on holiday - you know, when I was growing up and people were lucky enough to hop on a plane or a ferry, you know, they might go down to Spain or France in the middle of summer. 

Now it's, a lot of people are just like, "Nope, I'm not..." 

Jen: Too hot. 

Matt: I'm just not going there. It's far too hot. I mean, you've come back from Australia, or say come back a few months ago. Uh, just in terms of concrete examples of adaptation, are there any that just spring to your mind that you're like, "Yeah, there we go. It's already happening. It's over there".  

Jen: One of the things that always strikes me is, so in, in Australian, um, cities and communities, there will always be shady areas. So the shade is obviously to protect from the, the heat and the extreme heat. Um, it's to get out of the damaging, um, UV. 

Matt: Yeah, yeah. 

Jen: So sun, sunlight. Um, but also the infrastructure, the urban infrastructure for heavy rainfall, um, is just very different to what we have here in the UK, because the rain there falls, um, fast and hard. If they do have, if they do have rain now, that's much more like what we're seeing. Like, not too long ago, Matt, and I think this was before you went on holiday, we had that after this unseasonably dry spell, we had this absolute deluge and then a, a longer dry spell. 

Um, and that deluge just saw flooding, like very, very localised flooding. But also like I was going through the park afterwards. There were, there was a lot of sediment was shifted in that. And so it was affecting the, the, the footways, the cycleways, there's lots of material had got moved. 

So I see what, um, is currently infrastructure in practice, and also behaviour practices, um, in Australia. And I come back to the UK and I'm like, we're really quite behind, given that we're already experiencing some of these, these waves. 

Matt: I, I get it, I find it really fascinating when adaptation meets mitigation. 

Jen: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: And where the effects of climate change are actually starting to stymie our ability to mitigate. So I don't know, maybe I'm just using two examples that have just jumped into my mind. But, um, you know, if you're wanting to be good and take public transport into work and get the train, but it's too hot 'cause, and the rails are buckling and you can't do that. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: Or be, you know, you're looking at pumped hydro or run of the river hydro and there's not enough water in the, in, in, in the riverbed. And, um, that is kind of frightening. Like your, your capacity to mitigate could be very... 

Jen: Yes. 

Matt: Much eroded by the effects of climate change. So how do we need to adapt our mitigation strategy as well? 

Jen: Yeah. Yes.  

Matt: That, that then becomes really interesting. Like, are the things that we are doing to cut emissions in a two degree world, or nearly two degree world, not really gonna work that well in a three or four degree... like nuclear power. You need the sources of water and, you know, reliably so. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: But, uh, I think now might be a very good time to bring Emma in to, uh, well, to bring his right up to speed.  

Emma: Hello, my name is Emma Yule, and I'm an adaptation researcher. And my work mainly focuses on how the public sector and communities can prepare for the impacts of climate change. 

Jen: Great. Welcome, Emma. So to start with, it would be really helpful if you could tell us like what is climate change adaptation and how is it distinct from or kind of partnered with climate change mitigation?  

Emma: Yeah, so climate change adaptation is more about preparing for the impacts of climate change or reducing the risks associated with climate change. So that can be things like preparing for heat waves or floods. Um, it could be around having a business continuity plan, for example. Whereas climate mitigation is more focused on reducing the greenhouse gas emissions that cause the climate change impacts. So the two are intrinsically linked, but one is more about reducing, um, the greenhouse gas emissions and the other reducing the impacts of climate change. 

However, I think there are areas where they can overlap quite significantly. So things like tree planting, for example, we usually think of, um, carbon mitigation, being able to, to uptake CO2 emissions. That can also, um, help with water retention during flood events, for example. Um, or trees can provide shade during heat waves as well. 

So there are areas where it can be really helpful to think of the, the overlaps or the intersections between them. Also as well, we want to make sure that the infrastructure that we're building today will be resilient to future climate impacts. So for example, if we're building a school and we have, you know, solar panels on the roofs, places to charge electric vehicles, if that's within an area that might be flooded in the future, then it's not gonna last very long. 

Or if we don't think about things like how we can keep that building cool during heatwave events, then it might mean that we need to retrofit the building, which might end up costing more money, um, and more carbon emissions in the future as well. So it can be important to distinguish the aim of adaptation and mitigation, but also how they can overlap and how we can think about both at the same time as well. 

Matt: Yeah. That's really interesting Emma, and I think maybe just want to pick up on the, the term there, resilient. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: Or resilience. Often I've thought about it as a, connected mostly to climate adaptation in the sense that we are trying to adapt to make our economy and society and communities more resilient to the effects of climate change. 

So I guess firstly is that, is that your understanding of where the two overlap? And I think maybe the follow on is, is it also connected to mitigation? 'Cause we're also mitigating, as well as adapting to make society, economy, communities more resilient. So just wanted to get your take there. Because I think often it's used interchangeably with climate adaptation and I, I'm probably guilty of that. 

Emma: Yeah. I think resilience and adaptation are used interchangeably. And actually I think in a different context, I've seen different definitions of resilience and adaptation and what they both mean. I think the most common way I've seen it explained is adaptation is the process to build resilience. So it's the steps that you take, such as a flood defence, potentially, that will end up helping to build that resilience, which is usually more about being able to recover from an event or absorb shocks a bit, a bit easier. 

It also brings up, I think, quite a complicated question in the space around the difference between incremental adaptation and transformational adaptation. And I think resilience is usually talked about in the form of a kind of transformation of society. 

So looking at the wider question of what makes a community or a place become resilient. So that can also be things like looking at vulnerability, looking at poverty, for example – reasons why people are vulnerable to these events in the first place. And it's that kinda transformation of society, looking at large land use change, for example. 

So there's a question of whether incremental adaptation action builds up to that resilience level, or do we need to be thinking about that transformational change right from the start? Do we centre people who are most vulnerable to these events? Who's making those decisions? Um, so I think in a way that's what excites me about adaptation and resilience building. 

It's, it's that big shift in our society, um, around how we deal with these things and, and how we centre those who are, are most vulnerable in the decision making as well. And I think the two go hand in hand, particularly at the local level or the community level. A lot of those conversations I see happen hand in hand between mitigation and adaptation. 

So thinking about, for example, creating green spaces and the multiple benefits that that might have in a community. Also things like locally owned energy projects as well, and being able to kind of use the funds for that in the adaptation projects, for example. So, yeah, I think mitigation always seems to be prioritised, I think, whether that's at community level or in the public sector, in the private sphere as well. 

And I think there's a number of reasons for that. So I think it's important to be able to distinguish between mitigation and adaptation, but also see how the two go hand in hand.  

Matt: So just a quick point I think of clarification there. So in a previous life, I sort of gone around technology innovation, and a big part of that was incremental versus radical innovation. 

And if we take the case of mitigation there, you can have an incremental innovation, which might be being able to squeeze a bit more efficiency out of a, a solar cell or a wind turbine, or a few more miles per gallon from a internal combustion engine. But the, the step change, the new technologies, you know, whether they're a sort of new generation solar panel or a floating wind turbine, or an electric vehicle versus internal combustion. 

So these are almost like sort of new species kind of popping out, um, being able to be applied to reduce carbon emissions. I'm really interested in that incremental versus radical, and I just wondered whether you could maybe give an example, uh, an everyday example possibly, that we're all familiar with, where something is an incremental form of adaptation versus quite a dramatic step change, a radical, uh, form of adaptation. 

Emma: Yeah. Yeah, I think, um, it's a question I think that a lot of people are, are trying to answer just now and trying to kind of build case studies from. I think one potential example could be the difference looking at can flood protection, for example. So if you have a, a flood prevention scheme, a flood alleviation scheme, um, which is kind of one large capital project that's put into a town that could be considered an incremental approach. 

So you have kind of one technology that's used and that's your sole approach to, to flood prevention. Whereas more of a transformative change might be kind of a multitude of different solutions. So things like using nature-based solutions, um, potentially a, a large flood alleviation scheme as well, but maybe also community resilience groups, building that kind of local knowledge as well. 

And I think that transformation as well really comes in collaboration, so I think collaboration is a word that comes up I would say even more so in adaptation than talking about mitigation. It's really centred in, um, the Scottish National Adaptation plan as well. So I think it's also that collaboration between kind of national government, local government, communities, and who has decision making power, as well. So it's almost that shift, I think, um, almost a societal shift, even more maybe than a technological shift that we can see that, that change.  

Jen: Can I ask, just to pick up on that example that you just gave, to me, hearing about incremental is, um, kind of progress along one avenue, but one step at a time. Whereas some of the projects I've heard about sound a bit more like piecemeal, rather than incremental. So it's like dealing with one thing over here, another thing over here, another thing over here. And not necessarily like super joined up, but that example that you just gave of these kind of multifaceted approach was still about a sort of a single solution, which was flood risk management. 

Are there examples of transformational adaptation where we're talking about more than one outcome, if you see what I mean? So rather than reduction in flood risk, it's also other types of adaptation objectives or other, yeah, objectives. Like other, I always talk about co-benefits, so let's use that word, so other sorts of co-benefits or other purposes from these initiatives.  

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. Um, I like the word co-benefits as well. I think it comes up a lot in these projects. Um, I think one is, um, Climate Ready Clyde that's been used an as, as an example of transformational change. So that was looking to, to kind of rebuild, um, part of the communities around the River Clyde. 

And so that had the, the adaptation, looking at kind of flood impacts, heat impacts, the kind of hazards related to climate change, but also around people's lives. The kind of social aspect, the livelihood, and I think there is that with, with climate adaptation, the link between this and, and other sectors. So whether that's looking at what makes different people vulnerable to these impacts to begin with. 

So inequalities for example, within so society and making sure that they won't be exacerbated by climate impacts. Um, and that's also things like health. Um. I've been doing some work recently on the, the links between adaptation and the social care sector and what that might mean for the social care sector. 

So I think there are, when you kind of unpick the things behind adaptation, it sits behind so many sectors, and again, probably loops back to that need for collaboration, to really understand what the impacts of climate hazards are today, how that might change in the future, and then what change needs to happen within a multitude of sectors to actually get to that future. 

Jen: So that links to a question that I'm really interested to hear your, your response, your experience of as well, is actually that thing of how do you do adaptation? You've outlined a bit of a process there. Is it, is it simply that, to basically first understand the vulnerabilities, then come up with a plan, then implement that plan, whether that's incrementally or transformationally or other, and then monitor and evaluate? Is that the process of adaptation? Is it that cycle or is it something a bit different?  

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. I, I think that cycle is, is usually what's laid out in things like the Climate Change Committee reports, or even at the global, global level from, from COP reports and things. I think one of the, the kinda main steps that an organisation or a community would look at is, is reducing climate risk, which is the main goal of adaptation. But I think how risk is understood is I think usually the focus is given to the hazard – so the heat wave or the flood – but climate risk is made up of the hazard, but also people's exposure to that hazard. 

So whether that's for example, buildings in a floodplain, or risk of overheating if, if people work outdoors for example, but also vulnerability, which kinda sits into that function of climate risk being this function of the hazard, the exposure and the vulnerability. And the vulnerability can be things like related to health conditions and also things like income level, education level, for example. 

And all these things will play a part in looking at who is most impacted by these events and in what way they're impacted. So I think there's, that's kind of the first process of really understanding what are the kind of hazards that we're going to see, who might be exposed and why. And how that might impact people differently within our communities or even within the people that we work with. 

And then it's kind of coming up with a, a plan for that. And I think because of those different elements, that plan will require collaboration or, or co-creation between a lot of those people who are exposed or particularly vulnerable. And then after that, we could put the plan in action and look at some way of, of trying to monitor and, and learn from that. 

So yeah, I think it's kind of that five pronged approach, but with those kind of multiple steps of, of trying to really understand who it is that's exposed and then most vulnerable and make sure that they're pulled into the, the decision making process.  

Matt: Yeah, that's, that's very helpful. So a, a, a lot of the time we sort of spent on this pod and through our work at, um, at uh, Strathclyde, Jen and I talk about whose responsibility is this, like who, who is doing the planning and who's responsible for executing the plan. Uh, and we end up drawing lots of, sort of very complicated pictures of sort of national and regional and local and community. And, and, you know, at the end of the day, depending on the problem, sometimes the onus does sit, you know, in different places. 

But from the perspective of adaptation, who, who is really putting their shoulder to the wheel on this? Who, who is picking up the, the bulk of that responsibility about planning forward? Uh, and then who's responsible for implementing these plans? Is this a national play? Is it a regional play? Is it, are communities at the heart of this or local authorities? 

Emma: Yeah, it's, it's an interesting question. So the Scottish National Adaptation Plan was released last year, and that's from 2024 to 2029. And that set out a little bit about that responsibility and, and the actions that people take, and what was interesting about that, I think, is that one of the key outcomes was on communities, and the wording is communities are "creating climate resilient places". 

And I think through that plan, it really centres the role of communities. But then there's the question of resource and where the resource comes from to be able to do that. So on one hand, I think a lot of communities around Scotland are really taking the lead on this already and, and want to have that responsibility, but that means that a lot of people currently are in a volunteering role in relation to that. 

So I think that also kinda raises the question about where the resources come from and how that works. If the goal is to have that, that decision making and the kind of autonomy within communities, so. I think so far from my experience of this, there's a kind of national plan at the the Scottish level, which has been developed in partnership with public sector community groups. 

Within the public sector, there's the, the adaptation plans within different local authorities, for example, and within different bodies. And there's a really strong collaboration of public sector groups looking at this. And then in communities, there's the community climate hubs that have recently been established that are looking at this. 

So I think there's quite strong collaboration and work going on at communities, at public sector and at national level. But there's maybe a little bit missing around how to tie that up, which I think we see in some regions, maybe more than others. So I think there's some projects; it's really around how to strengthen that communication and collaboration between public sector communities and national government. 

And then also the private sector as well, which has a big role to play in, in funding a lot of the projects. So yeah, I think there's definitely work to be done on, on how do we tie these different groups together?  

Matt: Is it the classic kind of issue – I guess it's this kind of twofold, so I'm kind of thinking, uh, in terms of moving from sort of local to the national level and everything in between, but also then looking, uh, laterally or horizontally between sectors and, and certainly in, in Scottish or UK context, many of our kind of, uh, big, sort of complex sort of systems thinking-type problems, demand connectivity and coordination up the way and side to side. 

Uh, and something like, so we've spent a lot of time thinking about how we mitigate, you know, across sectors and, and also across these sort of spatial levels. I'm just wondering how much we can bring to bear from that and other issues with regards to adaptation. So I think on that note, maybe I'll hand over to Jen to talk a little bit more about National Adaptation Plans, 'cause they sound fascinating. 

Jen: Yeah, I do wanna pick up on that point there, Matt, there's questions of what also can mitigation be learning from adaptation, given that adaptation, currently there's a real focus on communities and community knowledge and that's taken quite a long time to come out of mitigation, like respect for local place, local knowledge. 

Whereas actually it sounds like adaptation starting from that place, but going actually, how do we resource that? So maybe we can come back to that. Um, but yeah, Emma, I wanted to pick up on that. You mentioned the National Adaptation Plans, um, and I wondered for our, our listenership, if you could just describe what these are and does every country that's party to the Paris Agreement, is this something they're putting together or have had to put together for a certain timeframe? 

And I guess I should caveat this to say I'm, I'm much more familiar with like long-term, like long-term emission strategies and the National Determined Contributions sort of part of climate mitigation, but way, way less familiar with the Climate Adaptation Plans. So, so over to you, if you can tell us what these are and the level of authority that these plans bring. 

Emma: Mm, yeah. Yeah. I think the mitigation part gets discussed slightly more than the, than the adaptation part. But yeah, it's part of the, the Paris Agreement for all the parties to create what was called a National Adaptation Plan. And this was more formalised at COP 28, where they produced a Global Framework for Adaptation. 

So in Scotland, the one that's been released lately is Scottish National Adaptation Plan three. So that's the third one for Scotland. And these are created so that the Climate Change Committee will put together a, a climate change risk assessment every five years. And that's for the whole of the UK that looks at all the, the risks and opportunities that climate impacts will bring. 

So I'm sure there were 61 that, that were looked through for, for Scotland, and the plans are then developed to try and address those risks that have been identified through that process and through that report. So yes, the, the plan that's been released lately is, is for the next five years. And the main kind of outcomes of that, there's the, the community one that communities are creating climate resilient places. 

There's also an outcome based on nature and connecting nature across land and sea. There's an outcome for public services and for economies and industries, and also an outcome related to the role that Scotland has internationally in terms of, of adaptation.  

Jen: Great. That's really helpful. The work that I've been doing on, um, like long-term low emission strategies, there's not, not everyone is uploading their strategies at the times that they're meant to. So this is a COP 28 outcome. Um, is Scotland on the front foot here in having the Third National Adaptation Plan and having submitted it, or is it, is it actually something that globally, um, internationally, we are seeing these plans coming forward? And do you have any idea as well on how, how much conversation or collaboration there is across countries with these sorts of plans to get like a really full picture? Or all these are currently kind of piecemeal strategies and plans, similar to what we're seeing with the mitigation plans? 

Emma: Yeah, I, I think with adaptation there was more flexibility given to the National Adaptation Plans, I would say mainly because each country's risks will be very different. So the hazards phase, the exposure, the vulnerabilities will be really different per nation. So I'm not so sure on the mitigation side, but that was my understanding of the adaptation side, that this framework is quite high level. 

So I think at the national level or the global level, there was seven priorities. So around food, water, um, ecosystems, poverty and cultural heritage, I think around those topics. Um, so when the plans are developed, they're all to kind of align with that global, very high level outcomes, but each country is kind of able to do that differently depending on what's most important for, for the country. 

I think with the UK and how that works because there's one assessment for the whole of the UK, the plans will be quite similar for UK nations. I spend some time in France and I looked at the, the adaptation plan for France that came out recently, and that's quite interesting as well. They've taken a different approach and used very specific, um, warming scenarios. 

So they've looked at what might happen at four degrees of warming in different areas of France, whereas I think the, the Scottish approach is more around kind of building capabilities for adaptation rather than looking at specific hazards under certain warming scenarios. So that's my understanding, that it was given more flexibility as opposed to the mitigation plans. 

Jen: So Emma, I'm really interested to hear how you measure against adaptation. What, what sort of metrics are we talking about? Um, particularly we're talking here about these kind of counterfactual of an event didn't happen because of adaptation. So how are you measuring success in, in adaptation?  

Emma: Yeah, I think it's been a question, definitely it's interested me in research that I've done recently looking at adaptation targets and what they could look like. And I think it's been one of the reasons, um, or one of the cited reasons why adaptation is, is focused less on mitigation because there's not that kind of catch-all target of, of CO2 equivalent and that kind of long-term goal. 

So I think when it comes to adaptation targets, it's kind of talked around more in principles. So the Climate Change Committee have principles for what good adaptation looks like. So that's things like addressing inequalities, um, avoiding lock-ins, so making sure that you consider adaptation with mitigation projects, for example. 

But I think when it comes to specific measurements, there's also the question around is it resilience that you're measuring, or is it the actions that have been put in place? And a lot of the times, you know, these events, we're seeing record breaking events continually year on year. So I think we usually talk about trying to be in a well adapting state rather than being well adapted, kind of recognising that, even if we put in all the adaptation measures possible, there could be a record breaking flood or heat wave that would require even more effort to put in. 

But I think the, the kind of process of either how adaptation's done or even how targets are created is quite important. So ensuring that there's collaboration, bringing in that local knowledge and making sure that any targets are linked to other areas such as mitigation or, or health. And I think also making sure that the goal is really to reduce vulnerability. I think that's a really important point. So for example, if a target was related to tree planting, then I think you need to make sure that the trees are selected not only for their ability to uptake CO2, but also in terms of their ability to retain flood water, to provide shade, but then also maybe making sure that they're in a low income area versus a high income area to be able to provide outdoor space, things like that. 

And I think it's quite interesting what we're seeing in terms of some of the targets created at national policy levels. So for example, in Canada's National Adaptation Plan, there's an, an indicator that's the percentage of people who have a strong sense of belonging to their local community. And that's linked to resilience. 

This idea that if you feel like you belong in your community, you're potentially more resilient against shocks, um, checking in on on people who are potentially vulnerable and, and things like that. So I think it's much more qualitative. And I think it's, it's probably more important the process rather than the one set of targets that's created for, for adaptation and building resilience. 

Matt: So, so maybe kind of, uh, on that, and apologies if this is diverging a little bit too much, but I was really taken by something I read in the paper, it was actually reflected on a, on a peer reviewed journal article that came through and it, it just reported the amount of overheating in, in British homes, which was like, wild. 

Like, they asked basically – this is from the, the Guardian reporting this – it asked almost 1,600 households whether they had experienced uncomfortable warmth in one or more rooms during the summer of 2022. Same question had been asked in 2011. It found the rate of overheating reported leaped from 18% to 80% in 2022. 

Emma: Wow. 

Matt: More than a third of households said their homes had overheated daily. So that really begs the question for me in these plans, what kind of things are we expecting to come down the pipeline? So I, I, again, for our listeners, not everybody who listens will be from Britain or UK or Scotland, but it still scans. 

What kind of things might we be expecting? Are we gonna have to retrofit our homes, not only to make them lower carbon, i.e. bring in a heat pump or a, um, insulate, but also to adapt? So actually you might be bringing in a reversible heat pump that has some air conditioning unit, or you might be insulating anyway because that only not keeps you, keeps you warmer in winter, but, um, cooler in summer. 

So what kind of things are we seeing in these? Um, you know, what does the future look like as a result?  

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. I think that's a, that's a really good question and I think it's also the difference as well, I suppose, between the kind of national plans, the public service plans, and, um, what individuals and, and communities can do about it. 

Um, and I think also comes back to the question of, of vulnerability as well, because there's a question of, of income there, about how much is it gonna cost at an individual property level to make these changes. Um, there's been issues of people who, who rent property and aren't able to make these adjustments to the property, as well. 

Um, especially in towns, you know, in Edinburgh that have these huge windows that are, make it very cold in winter and now very hot in the summer. So yeah, I think there's a lot of work to do to retrofit buildings, to change them, which is also why I think it's important to be considering adaptation along with mitigation now for things like new builds, and I think there tends to be a priority given on the mitigation actions, on, on new builds as opposed to how they might need to adapt. 

So yeah, even things, I think in the UK and, and in Scotland, I think there's also lessons about how to deal... 

Matt: Yeah. 

Emma: With a heat wave event. I think usually we have the, the first thought of opening the window. 

Matt: Yeah. 

Emma: Whereas, you know, if you live somewhere warmer, the first thing you want to do is close the window, close the shutters, which, I think it's kind of lessons like that, that we need to start thinking about things that we maybe haven't really considered before. 

Matt: It's also the, the, the kind of the carbon implications of some of the adaptation. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Matt: So again, in that same article and the reporting of it, um, again, the, the, the sort of 11 years between 20 11, 20 22, they found a sevenfold increase in the use of air conditioning in British homes.  

Emma: Mm-hmm. Yeah. 

Matt: One in five were using air con. Now that brings me back to when I was living in London, uh, left almost 10 years ago now, and I had pals buying air con units, right? Which was just mad, okay? But the sensible thing to do, if your house is overheating, you've got young, young children, but there's a cost associated with that. There's an energy consumption associated with that. Um, and how sustainable that is. So I guess this for me brings me to a broader point, which is how useful is it to have one national adaptation strategy and then one national mitigation strategy? Why are we not thinking about the two together? Um, and maybe we are, maybe I'm, I'm, I'm just not seeing it.  

Emma: Yeah, no, I think that's a, that's a really good question. And I actually think with adaptation, part of it is you want it to be so implemented and, and integrated into other policy areas that you almost don't want there to be discussion about adaptation anymore. 

I think the ideal end goal would be to make sure that there's adaptation considerations and, and health plans and education plans and climate plans. So I think that would ideally be the goal. And I think that the problem is that maybe it's, it's very optimistic thinking that we wouldn't need to do any adaptation planning 'cause the mitigation was gonna be enough to mean that the future won't look different to the past. 

And I think what we're seeing recently with, with increased floods, increased heat waves right across the world and in Scotland as well, is that the climate has already changed. So we really need to be putting in these adaptations now. Um, and I think in the past it's, it's almost been that adaptation and discussing it is seen as giving up on mitigation. 

And, and we know now that that's not the case and we're already seeing these impacts today. So I, I agree. I think if we could have a, an integrated mitigation and adaptation plan, um, and even have that integrated into other key policy areas, that would be ideal.  

Jen: That would be, that would be, yeah. That would be fantastic. But yeah, I, I guess thinking there about, we talked a bit about the too much heat, not enough heat, too much water, not enough water, too much wind, not enough wind, um, these sorts of, uh, lived experiences. So I, I'm really interested as whether or not the adaptation narrative has been gaining, um, interest in the media and so on, because it's tangible, because people are living it in a way that mitigation may not feel quite, quite so tangible right now. 

People can see and feel that there is a need to adapt, whether it's because there's too much heat or not enough or there's too much water or not enough. Um, it is something that people are experiencing and therefore the, the narrative and the profile of adaptation feels to be growing in a way that may not be quite so tangible for, for mitigation. 

Um, but my question actually to you, Emma, is really about the funding of this. So we touched that a bit then around who can pay, whether it's adaptation in their home or local environment. And you talked a bit about the volunteer sector. Really, I, I wanna know how is adaptation being funded or who has that responsibility? And I, probably, you'll say everybody, but, but for the funding angle currently, how is adaptation measures being funded?  

Emma: Yeah. Yeah. I think there's a very big gap in adaptation finance, and it's one of the things that's came out as a key area for, for research and, and for work to be done. And I think the main issue is really that with mitigation projects, you can kind of understand the return on investment a bit more easily than you can with an adaptation project. 

And, and I think that's for a few reasons I think. We're still kind of assume that the future is gonna be similar to what we've seen in the past. But when we look at the climate impacts that we see today and in the future, we know that we're gonna see more floods, more heat waves, the intensity and the um, frequency is gonna increase. 

So I think how we kind of make financial decisions would need to change. I've seen that a little bit with, with flooding projects that, so how flooding projects tend to be prioritised around Scotland is, is based on a cost-benefit analysis. Um, and that's similar to right across the UK and that means it's easier to put things like one large capital project, a flood alleviation scheme into that cost-benefit analysis. 

But when you look at things like nature-based solutions, um, even kind of community resilience and, and increasing awareness, that's much more difficult to be able to put into something like a cost-benefit analysis. So I think there's been kind of a, a lack of funding there, because things like nature-based solutions require another separate pot of money. 

Because it's very difficult to compare the cost effectiveness of something like nature-based solutions for flooding versus a flood alleviation scheme. But I think what we're seeing now a little bit more is trying to understand what the costs of no action is, and I think that's what's been missing, that we assume that that doesn't have a cost associated. 

And there's a, a report that came out recently, um, from the Royal Scottish Geographical Society, that said that by 2050 in Scotland, between five and 20% of GDP could be used if there's no action taken on, on climate change. So I think we're starting to understand that, or change the conversation a little bit, to understand what the cost of inaction is, and that can help us to kind of show what needs to be done and then why that needs to be spent. 

And I think, again, it, it's kind of where we see these projects happen. It's, it's kind of using mitigation, so having that kind of bundle of solutions in a place where any income from things like local energy production can be used on adaptation projects. So yeah, I think there, there's a lot of of work to be done. And again, that collaboration between the private sector, public sector, I think will be critical there too.  

Jen: Yeah. Definitely by the sounds of it, to ensure that these, you're talking about when you're assessing adaptation, you're looking at like vulnerabilities. 

Emma: Mm. 

Jen: Then there's also this kind of vulnerability in, in terms of ensuring that that phrase, nobody gets left behind. 

Emma: Yeah. 

Jen: Um, and the funding of these interventions and where that funding is spent and for what, that'll be a, I, I hope that'll be a critical question as well, because if we don't look at these things we talked about, thinking about climate adaptation together with climate mitigation, if those are not looked at in the context of other social systems change, then yeah, we've got a risk of, of the vulnerable becoming even more vulnerable. 

Matt: I mean, just for the avoidance of doubt for, for our listeners, um, I'm, I'm assuming if you've taken that sort of cost-benefit perspective, that you're gonna get more bang for your buck in terms of mitigation versus adaptation. The, the idea being that you mitigate your way out of the problem first, and you kind of mop up whatever mess you didn't avoid through adaptation. 

But adaptation will cost a hell of a lot more. I mean, is that, it's a crude simplification because it depends on the issue that we're talking about, but is is that the general kind of understanding?  

Emma: I think so. With, with mitigation, I think the, the short term gains tend to be there for things like solar panels and, and things like that. So even at an individual level, you can calculate the benefit of adding a PV panel to your house will bring, whereas if you say, "I'm gonna insulate the house" or, maybe you could for that or, or maybe paint it white or, or something like that. Or, you know, invest in, in drainage, make sure that your, your drains are well maintained. 

It's more difficult to cost that without knowing if you are gonna be flooded, when that's gonna be, when the heat wave's gonna be. So I think there's less predictability as opposed to things like a PV panel where the kinda systems are in place to be able to calculate that.  

Matt: Oh man, this is blowing my mind because there's like, there's some really interesting points here about the saleability of a low carbon home is probably more obvious in terms of the assets associated with it, the kind of the EV charger, the solar on the roof. 

Emma: Mm-hmm. 

Matt: But actually the value of the adaptation is maybe less obvious from a kind of real estate standpoint for, using the house as a case here, but actually from an insurance standpoint, it's probably really is actually factored in. You know, so when you come to pay for the, the home and buildings, contents and all the rest, the insurer is looking at things that, you know, Mr and Mrs Smith who are buying, you know 24 Acacia Avenue are not looking for in, in terms of property. So, but that's probably an entirely different episode. Um, I just wanted to say because it's exciting. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Emma: Um, over to you, Jen.  

Jen: Yeah, I think we will, we will address that topic in a future episode to really get to grips of, um, of what this means at the hyperlocal level. And one of the things I picked up on Emma there, you're talking about the maintenance and actually maintenance of the public realm is a really sore point. You know, it is not just in terms of people moaning about potholes, but it's the blocked drain issue. And I guess I, I wonder to what extent... you've talked about different operators at different levels for national, regional to local. 

Where does the local authority sit within this? Something we've talked about a lot on Local Zero, um, is this kind of connectivity between local authorities and communities. So is it, is this the same with adaptation? Is it the, that relationship and that collaboration really important?  

Emma: Yeah, definitely. I think local authorities have a really key role to play and I think a lot of local authorities are doing great things in the, in the adaptation space. And I think it is that around collaborating with communities in the area, trying to understand where the kind of gaps are and, and also using, um, local knowledge as well in, in the decision making. And I think it is complicated in terms of even different flooding sources. So, you know, we talk mainly about river flooding and having flood alleviation schemes and things like that. 

But when we have heavy rainfall events, particularly if there's a heavy rainfall event after a period of drought, then we have the kinda different floods that can't be absorbed into the the ground in the same way. So that's also the road teams, you know, the national water bodies as well, that that will have a role to play there. 

So I think that's also a challenge at the moment, particularly with surface water floods and all of the different public bodies that are responsible for that and how that works. So I think that's also why collaboration is such a key part of the national policy as well for things like that. And who has responsibility where.  

Jen: I feel like I've had a fair bit of that, uh, lived experience of the surface water flooding recently with these extended periods of drought and then these heavy rainfall events, then cycling home through completely flooded cycleways because the drains just aren't draining. So I, I imagine our listeners will all each have their own, own thoughts on that and their own experiences, and that's where it comes back to that you know, that these are issues that are being experienced now. This isn't in the future. This is now and into the future. 

Matt: I spend a lot of time complaining that we don't communicate with people, organisations, businesses, effectively enough about the value of climate mitigation and what needs to be done and why. Um, I won't bore people with the same argument because I've made it on here a million times. In terms of adaptation, have, have you any reflections there about how we should be communicating with people to kind of inform them, educate them, bring them along, inspire them into action? Because obviously that's where a lot of the political, uh, action and the funding that we've referred to comes along. So any reflections there about how, how best to win hearts and minds?  

Emma: Yeah, I think it's on my mind a lot and I think it's, we've talked about it in, in lots of, of different contexts, and I think there's the balance, because I think fear doesn't motivate people. Um, usually being able to take action does. 

But I think there's also that thought of, of making sure that you're not hiding any truth in what's going to come more or what we could see in the future. And the role that climate plays in events that we see now. So I think making that clear, I think on, um, local news or, or radio, when we talk about floods and, and heat waves, it's not always attributed to climate change. 

And that process of direct attribution, takes a little bit longer, but I think that has been done for, for recent UK floods to see the actual impact that climate change has had on that event. But regardless, we know that the trend of, of increased floods and heat waves is due to climate change. So I think making that link really clear and moving away from this thing of, of it being a kind of natural disaster or or natural process, but that it is a human made process. 

But I think as well, it's looking at the core benefits that we discussed around adaptation that, you know, an adaptation solution is really about having more, more trees, more plants that's able to take in that water if there is a flood, to provide shade that's also good for health, for wellbeing. And it's creating spaces where, you know, communities can come together, support those who are most vulnerable to these particular impacts, you know, it's maybe local food. 

So I think a lot of the solutions involve people collaborating, looking out for those who need it. Having more green space around. So I think that's a world that most of us want to live in. So I think the solutions that that we're looking to, particularly the land-based ones, have so many benefits on people. 

And I think people can engage in this at a political level or through work, but also at a local level as well. So there are actions that that people can take. So I think that is the, the main one, it is kind of trying to create communities and, and spaces that, that we want to live in. You know, it, it is not, I think, only fighting the bad impacts of climate change, but thinking about the opportunities that that can bring for us as well. 

Matt: Couldn't have said it better myself. Well, thank you very much for... 

Emma: Oh, thank you. 

Matt: For that detailed, uh, and expert primer on climate adaptation. We hope to maybe have you along another time soon. 

Emma: Yeah, any time. 

Jen: Wow, lots to think about. So much insight into adaptation and where it sits alongside mitigation and how the two aspects can link together with other transformations. So I thought that was really interesting, but also really complex and I thought it was really, really like impressive how we went from the national international reporting through that to the super local... 

Matt: Yeah. 

Jen: Household decisions. So I feel like I took a lot from that. How about you, Matt?  

Matt: Yeah, I mean, again, feel like a kind of miniseries coming on! I want to dive much more deeply into adaptation. Um, a lot for me to think about, uh, particularly interested in these questions of how we value adaptation versus mitigation at a sort of national, international level versus uh, at the hyperlocal. 

So, you know, even whether it's, you know, your, your home or your neighbourhood, you know how we go about either just conceptualising that or measuring it. So yeah, I, I need to put a wet... 

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: Sort of towel over my head and lie down in a dark room and make, make sense of that. But 

Jen: Yeah. 

Matt: Um, so yeah, I think if listeners, if there's anything particularly interesting there, let us know. Let's dig into it again.  

Jen: I know that I would love to dig into that question of qualitative indicators, 'cause that's something we've heard about from community wealth building, also from previous work on adaptation. It's important that we have qualitative indicators, but those are so much harder when we live in a pretty much quantitative world, be it outside of stories and the important of stories. All of our metrics are quantitative, so, so much to delve into in the future. 

Matt: The dreaded cost-benefit analysis. A big thank you to our listeners for joining us for this episode of Local Zero. If you've enjoyed this episode, please do spread the word, hit the "share" button in your podcast app and send Local Zero to someone else who's interested in local climate action. 

Jen: Yeah, and if you're listening on Spotify, you can share your thoughts with us and with other listeners by commenting on this episode. And if you're on Apple Podcasts, please do leave us a review. Five stars would be lovely, of course.  

Matt: And if there's something you think we should be covering on Local Zero, give us a shout at localzeropod@gmail.com or get in touch over on LinkedIn. Just search for "Local Zero Podcast".  

Jen: Otherwise, we'll see you next time.  

Matt: See you then.